On Mon, 12 May 2008 14:45:04 -0700 (PDT), Mel Rowing
<mel.rowing@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>On May 12, 8:36 pm, abelard <abela...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 May 2008 12:14:34 -0700 (PDT), Mel Rowing
>
>> >> you believe....
>> >> you don't understand sufficient of the government manipulation of
>> >> money to make that claim....
>>
>> >Ah! a "put down"
>>
>> no...you keep repeating statements that are at least unclear
>> and look decidedly as if you don't follow....
>> i do wish people would understand the difference between
>> 'a put down' and being old they're talking pie.....
>
>Abe! Call me thik! Call me uninformed! Call me whatever you like but
>don't accuse anyone of being unclear least a bolt of lightening from
>out of the blue knocks you clean out of your seat!
there you go...trying to put me down :-)
>> >Well all I can say, is that you cannot show me one single incidence
>> >of a single penny being gifted by the BoE to any individual bank or
>> >financial institution.
>>
>> as said...you don't follow the trails....
>> the banks are 'given' money....often at 'interest' which is in the
>> real world, derisory.....
>
>So you still don't "show me one single incidence of a single penny
>being gifted by the BoE"
selling you a car at half price is not giving you a gift....
it may be many other things...some with rude names
>Gifts don't carry interest derisory or not nor is there any
>expectation of repayment.
ok....you can give me the car back in 10 years if you want....
but i'll also sell you more cars at half price every year....
>> they then lend that money at a profit.....
>>
>> >What you can show me is the £50bn. or £100bn. or whatever (lost count)
>> >has been made available for *loans* to the system. The difference
>> >between a loan and a gift, as of course you know, is that the latter
>> >is expected to be repaid.
>>
>> but that is part of what you don't seem to follow...that calculation
>> is neither simple nor easy....
>
>What calculation? I haven't even made one!
you're claiming 'the tax payer' won't lose.....
now i don't want to be accused of 'putting you down' again!
>> 1)the government does everything possible to muddy the waters
>
>> 2)the government runs up debt it has no real intention of repaying
>
>I am not discussing government debt!
true....but all money is approximately linked....
if pounds are devalued the effect goes widely...
also where there are profits, there are motives..and even sharks
with a nose for blud....
>> 3)if you borrow to buy a house....your house will (almost) invariably
>rise in price with little of no effort of your own....
>
>Exactly the same could be said of any other asset. Asset prices can
>also go down as well as up.
no it can't...it can't be said of your daily bread, your brand new car
or your particularly fetching hat....
>> now, you can do 3) primarily because you are participating in the
>> government's con games in degrading money....
>> real value is ****fting to your pocket from those holding money....
>
>What has this to do with the BoE "giving" money to banks and
>institutions.
durhhh.....among other things....
it gives the banks an op****tunity to trade their way out of trouble...
by trading on favourable terms...
it wipes much of their debt....(via inflation)
>> it is considerably more complex than this because a great deal
>> of the government con game is highly political....
>> it isn't economics as you seem to perceive it....
>
>Vaguaries!
the government uses these mechanism to control the population....
eg to keep the banks afloat....to subsidise the feckless by reducing
their debts....by covering their own tracks....
these actions take money from other places in the economy....
these actions manipulate wages and pensions downward....
they increase taxation in various manners....
eg directly....and indirectly....eg bank profits go up(more
profits to tax)...prices rise, still more taxes....
and on and on....
still too vague? if so you only need point it out/ask
>> >You will further be able to show me that the BoE has indicated a
>> >readiness to accept collateral with respect to these loans the
>> >standard of which falls below that being regarded as acceptable under
>> >current market conditions.
>>
>> your next sentence accepts you know this is currently under way...
>>
>> >Of course with respect to the latter, you will point out the
>> >consequent increased exposure to risk to which I would counter that
>> >this is adequately and probably more than adequately compensated by
>> >setting the interest rates these loans bear at a premium to LIBOR
>>
>> the banks are lending money about ten times over...
>> this is fractional banking and has a long long history....
>
>A five pound note is spent many times in its life as it p***** from
>hand to hand but it still remains the same £5 note. I think you mean
>that a unit of cash creates about 10 times its value in debt (money)
>which is not the same thing.
here i'll need you to be more clear :-)
which pound puts most purchasing power into the economy?
the one that is used 10 times in a month...or the one the is under
your mattress these last 10 years?
you could answer that two ways...a bit of a trick question....
look up 'velocity' of money if you need to
>In any case this is nothing to do with the BoE giving taxpayer's money
>away.
the boe is married to the government....the other banks are
concubines....
the whole mechanism is made of parts.....
the mechanism transfers value....the government gives and the
government taketh away...blessed be the government....
>> previous of your posts suggest you don't wish to accept
>> this real world fact....
>
>All facts are real world since they contain substence.
no dissent with that!
>> >(thus making normal inter bank lending more attractive) an further by
>> >insisting that loans are over covered by collateral (e.g. £800 loan
>> >for every £1000 worth of collateral offered)
>>
>> now you start to fish in still more clouded water.....
>
>Crystal clear to me!
you must have x-ray vision....
no longer for you the invisible hand eh....
>> only by tracing the exact terms of these allegedly onerous loans
>> could i follow the trail forward....
>
>The terms as re****ted seem perfectly ordinary and easily understood.
here i will zip me lip for fear of 'putting you down' again...
>> in a government cartelised fiat system...money become a political
>> instrument....
>> this distorts markets in many directions...
>
>There's no government cartel.
of course there is...only the boe can issue currency.....
> In order to obtain money to carry out
>its nonsenses a government needs to tax of borrow. If it could get
>away without doing either it would since that would make it
>indefeatable.
the government takes your good by force.....
it doesn't need money for that....it needs gangs and guns....
money just greases the processes
>> the numbers can't be treated with gcse math....
>> dealing with the uk socialist games with money is like one inch being
>> reduced by government action (fiat/law) to .9 of an inch each
>> january....and compounding!
>
>Bloody Hell!
>
>> until i know where you false assumptions lie...and how attached to
>> those assumption you are...
>> i can't see where to probe or what data you 'need'.....
>
>The only data I need is an instance of the BoE *giving* money to the
>banks.
see above....
perhaps we could discuss the meaning of 'giving'
if i feed you one car at half price each year...
have i 'given' you one car
regards...
--
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics
energy, education, politics, etc 1,552,396 do***ent calls in year past
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