law) forwarded to me by the system administrator had a header which I
removed
since it was not essential.
............
In another post today from his alias of "Roger C. Phelan", the forgerer
almost
admits his misdeed (actually committed by "J.K.Marks") and tries to
dismiss it
off as a harmless prank:
>Oh, come on, Sid, didn't you like my little practical joke?
>I sure had fun. And I intend ever more such fun, forging mail
>from people and calling up their bosses and complaining and
>stuff like that. Lighten up, you guys; it's just the Internet.
>
>
>Roger C Phelan
>rphelan1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hans Ehrbar [list manager]:
What kind of Marxist list is this where the forces of counterrevolution
and
reaction are allowed full play to defame, disorient and confuse by posting
forgeries, lies and slanders against list members from a number of fake
accounts [...]
[COMMENT: This I still today absolutely disagree with Sid about. Such
things
can do absolutely no harm and should always be allowed. *Marxists* who are
not
used to encountering defamations, abuse and massive disorientation
attempts at
least 100 times per day and who cannot, on principle, effectively turn
such
things into boomerangs by simply posting some suitable replies are more or
less
worthless, ready for the scrapheap.]
[...] while genuine people are allowed only one post a day less than 10 K
to
refute their false allegations?
[COMMENT: This then new "rule", of arch-reactionary suppression, I of
course
combated as much as I could, "together" also e.g. with several Murray
"cyber
ghosts".]
My suggestion to you once again is to IMMEDIATELY expel the individual who
uses
these aliases: "Thomas P. Murray", "Liam R. Flynn", "L.R.F", "Roger C.
Phelan",
"J.K. Marks", "C. Masterson" and now the "woman", "M.Simco
<msimco@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>". That will be good start. Any delay or hesitation
will
be dangerous to the health of the list no matter what the list marxists
say
about "democracy". I had asked you to do this quite some time ago but you
did
not reply. Instead, the great "Maoist" Rolf Martens, expressing his
liberal
sup****t for the reactionary provocateur (contra Chairman Mao) accused me
of the
sin of "Khrushchevism".
........
[END OF QUOTE]
COMMENT: This last thing here I saw reason to apologize to Sid for, since
this
*****sment of mine was quite wrong. Also, I came to realize that Murray
*had*
been guilty of at least *some* wrongdoing, precisely against Siddharth,
for
instance. I still held and hold, though, that these things at that time
had not
been very serious; they basically were pranks, even if, at times, somewhat
unpleasant such.
This very small bit of "ancient history" is sufficient for some "basic
background" in this present context, I think.
10. THE MERRY "M-L" MELEE NOW, PART 1
In the below I shall show some of the IMO more instructive (and/or
comical)
parts of this present little "dogfight" on a couple of mailing lists, by
quoting in full or in part a number of postings by others (above all) and
adding some brief comments of my own now.
It started out as a "branch" of the "AIDS" debate, with some angry replies
to
this posting of mine which I'm reproducing in full here:
10A) A POSTING BY ME (TO ALL LISTS AND SOME NEWSGROUPS) IN THE "AIDS"
DEBATE,
ON 16.08.2000
To:
pttp@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc:
Activist_List@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
mlmtt@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
From:
rolf.martens@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[NB, 2008: Now rolf.martens@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date:
Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:03:33 +0200 (MET DST) [or: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 21:03:33
GMT]
Subject:
Re: "Martha"/"Sue"/"Meia"/etc on "Orwell, AIDS Expert"
[NOTE, 22.08.2000, after this was first posted: I'm adding in brackets GMT
times for the respective postings from here on.]
Hello "Martha"/"Sue"/"Meia"/"After the Fall"/etc, etc,
You wrote, to the pttp list on 16.08, subject "George Orwell, AIDS
Expert":
["Martha":]
"Rolf: You surprise me! I liked some of what the article said, [the one by
Martin Kaufman reproduced in my Info #130en] although I believe HIV is a
precursor to AIDS."
This VERY WRONG and LONG-SINCE COMPLETELY REFUTED "belief" you, in your
shape
as "Martha", no doubt would have.
You probably are not going to tell others why, either.
You probably will NOT EVEN LOOK UP that very im****tant website which
provides
the FACTS on this matter, www.virysmyth.com, will you? Much less, COMMENT
ON
it.
Now in your shape as "Meia Dawn", you did actually write, on the ISML
list, on
10.08:
"Comrade Kumar,
having visited Martens's website, http://www.virusmyth.com/
[- it's not
"mine",
of course, but I was pointing to it], I was somewhat impressed of what I
saw."
.......
A little more scientific!
But will even "Meia" return on that subject? I doubt it.
The person behind your writings *is* rather well-informed on some matters
of
biology, as could be seen in some comments by "Meia" on the Lysenko
controversy. These did bring some valuable information. But the "AIDS
virus"
terror hoax, no, that is probably a TOO "sensitive" subject for "Meia",
for
"Sue" and for "After the Fall" too.
Would you really want to put in doubt SUCH things which the US
imperialists are
saying, which they clearly hold it to be pretty im****tant that people do
NOT
see is an utter hoax?
["Martha":]
"I have also heard there is a book just published that says Amerikkka is
responsible for AIDS and cor****ations have much to gain when 50% of the
African
continent is dead from AIDS (like diamonds, oil and the end of
dictator****ps
that quash US attempts to imperialize them). Does anyone know about this
book I
speak of?"
You should just do some introspection here, and ask "Meia", "Sue", "After
the
Fall" etc. One of them at least should know.But this is not im****tant
either.
In your shape as "Martha" you "must" appear to be very naive and ignorant,
of
course. You "cannot", in this shape of yours, even have read, for
instance,
these lines on that OTHER HOAX,the "virus created by US" one, in my Info
#129en
[Added in 2008: In its part 1/2]:
[Rolf, 13.08:]
"........
6. PROPAGANDA HOAX, FALSE PROPOSITION (RUMOUR) III., A "COUNTERPOINT" OR
"DISSIDENT" PROPOSITION
Not long after the 1984 press conference mentioned above and after an
ensuing
massive international media campaign had started, about the pur****ted "new
disease/syndrome" "AIDS", "caused by a virus", "HIV", there also was a
"counter-rumour" in some media. It said that "this virus" might be "the
result
of" "a >laboratory experiment gone wrong in the USA", or even willed
"biological warfare" on the part of the US imperialists.
The people behind this theory, or some of them, may well have sincerely
believed in it - as have no doubt many scientists sincerely believed in
the
"causing" of "AIDS" by a "naturally existing" virus. But this theory
demonstrably is quite wrong too. "AIDS" is NOT caused by a virus, whether
naturally-existing or somehow manmade.
And the rumour in this direction, giving rise to a debate at that time on
whether "that virus" had "originated in" the USA or perhaps in Africa,
precisely suited that aim of the arch-reactionaries too of making people
believe a virus *was* "the cause of" "AIDS". This theory or rumour no
doubt has
been at least encouraged precisely by those same arch-reactionaries, and
it's
possible that it was they who started it in the first place.
The reactionaries "needed", and still "need", a "theory" which is
"plausible"
also to those - quite many - who are, justly, very suspicious about the US
imperialists and prone to doubt what a US government may say publicly, a
"theory" which however avoids disclosing, and in fact helps hide, that
main
fact that "AIDS" is NOT caused by any virus at all."
["Martha":]
"Yes, condoms do de-sensitize the pleasure of being with another human
being.
It was very refre****ng for someone to talk of touching for once. It is
nice to
hear about human beings talked about in a more human and honest way. M"
Yes, isn't it. As you saw I disagreed with some things in Martin K.'s
article
too. But it absolutely went in the right direction.
And I must say that you surprised me too, "Martha", by putting your - very
welcome - signature to that statement in sup****t of the just struggle of
the DR
Congo which Per and I have been collecting signatures for now and which
will be
sent to-morrow. Much better than some things you wrote last May, I at
least
hold!
Perhaps it's as "Martha" that you have some more actual views in common
with
me, for instance, than as "Meia" etc, etc?
Anyway here's a little challenge to all of you "multiple poisonalities" to
write a little more on the matters of this giant propaganda terror hoax -
other
readers should not expect too much from you either, of course.
I'm repeating, to you and to others:
[QUOTE from my Info #129en, 13.08 - Added in 2008: part1/2:]
What are clearly all the vital technical details concerning the below,
readers
will find at the website www.virusmyth.com.
.........
1. GIANT PROPAGANDA HOAX, FALSE PROPOSITION I.
Since the early 1980s, there is an international propaganda saying that
there
is a "new" disease, or rather, "syndrome", in the world, called "AIDS"
("Acquired Immuno-Deficiency Syndrome").
This is FALSE. THERE IS NO "AIDS". THERE NEVER WAS ANY.
The scientists who have refuted the lies on this subject and whose
articles
you'll find at www.virusmyth.com are not putting the above proposition in
this
way. *I'm* doing this. But they, since long, are saying what amounts to
the
same thing. Below in section 8, I shall bring several quotes from them on
this.
WHAT IS BEING CALLED "AIDS" IN REALITY IS A NUMBER OF ACTUAL DISEASES,
KNOWN
ALSO BEFORE THE EARLY 1980S.
2. GIANT PROPAGANDA HOAX, FALSE PROPOSITION II.
Since 23 April 1984 - starting with a press conference on that day by the
"health minister" of the US imperialists, together with one misled and at
least
in part fact-distorting scientist (R. Gallo) - there is a massive
international
propaganda saying that the pur****ted "new" disease or syndrome is "caused
by a
virus" - by a pur****tedly existing such, since then referred to as "HIV"
("Human Immunodeficiency Virus").
This is FALSE. WHAT IS BEING CALLED "AIDS" IS NOT CAUSED BY A VIRUS.
That is, IT IS NOT INFECTIOUS, WHETHER ***UALLY-TRANSFERRED OR OTHERWISE.
THERE
IS NO "AIDS EPIDEMIC", NOT ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. THERE NEVER WAS ONE.
..........
[END OF QUOTE]
Rolf
I hope that readers will not be too bored by the below "horror
collection",
which - OK - is pretty long too, but this just to show all what you must
expect
to meet, and be ready to counter, if you really want to contribute towards
the
clubbing down of imperialism, revisionism and all reaction in the world.
[Added in 2008: In the below, there will often appear some lines starting
out
with "COMMENT" - lines with brackets [ ] around them if they come in the
middle
of someone else's posting, or without such if they come after it. In both
cases, those comments were added by me in retrospect, after I had compiled
the
whole set of postings, for my Info #131en, and were not some things which
I
wrote to the other participants in the debate, or melee, while it was
going
on.]
10B) "SUE" DOESN'T LIKE MY POSTING, REPLIES THE SAME DAY
From:
Sue T Simonson <progressivesociety@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Mailing-List:
Mailing-List: list internationalstrugglemarxistleninist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
internationalstrugglemarxistleninist-owner@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date:
Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:37:58 EDT [or: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 21:37:58 GMT]
Subject:
Rolf the misogynist
To all:
This is not the first time that Rolf has gone off the deep end concerning
women
who contribute to these discussions. Now he has an illusion that 4 people
are
the same person (I do not subscribe to the pttp list any longer, so I do
not
know "After The Fall" but would be interested to find out what she has to
say
about things).
In previous posts Rolf accused me, among other things, of being "in drag"
which
suggests he has a problem with homophobia, and he referred to Meia's name
as a
"girl's name" in an attempt to strut his male chauvinist stuff in front of
everybody.
[COMMENT: I wrote it *looked like* a girl's name, but, "for safety", first
wrote about "Meia" as being either a "she" or a "he", suggesting also it
*could* be an "it". The "logic" of calling someone a "misogynist" just on
account of his/her making some criticism of a *woman* concerning a
political
matter, btw, was equally ridiculously tried in the 1996 "Quispe" fight
too, by
the agent Chris Burford, London.]
This of course is an attempt to deflect the discussion onto Rolf's track
and
away from other issues which people consider more im****tant.
Rolf, I have no interest in this phony discussion on AIDS.
[COMMENT: !!]
As far as this list is concerned, according to the rules, abuse and/or
slander
is not to be tolerated.
[COMMENT: My pointing to "Sue's" connection to the other Murray funny
family
members was no "slander", of course, nor could it possibly be termed
"abuse".
(And another thing I'd like to point out again [see above!] is that on a
REAL
Marxist list, you WANT there to be as much as possible of such things!
Actual
Marxists will always meet loads of such stuff anyway and MUST learn how to
counter them, POLITICALLY, NOT by suppression - unless it's e.g.
Nazi/racist,
thus clearly criminal, statements, of course.]
I think it is a good rule, and I think that if someone wishes to spit in
the
face of a rule, not to mention spitting in the face of one or more of the
participants, then I would suggest that a warning be given, followed by
suspension for a week or so, followed by expulsion.
[COMMENT: "Sweet Sue" stripping herself of the last vestiges of those nice
"red" clothes, and in to her very skeleton, as really one of those "'BIG
BROTHER' SISTERS!" ]
In any case, I am making a complaint at this time. And I will do so on the
other list I belong to.
Sue Simonson
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:03:33 +0200 (MET DST)
rolf.martens@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
.............
10C) "KHRUSHCHOVITE" "COMRADE MART" MOST HEARTILY AGREES WITH "MAOIST"
"SUE",
WRITING ON PTTP
From:
"mart" <mart@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Mailing-List: list pttp@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
contact pttp-owner@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:01:21 -0400 [or: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:01:21 GMT]
Subject: Re: Re: "Martha"/"Sue"/"Meia"/etc on "Orwell, AIDS Expert"
Well Rolf, I see you're back to your old stock in trade, of personal
attack,
name calling and charactor assinatination. You have learned nothing from
your
tem****ary banishment from this group. I know from previous dealings with
you,
that there is no point in even trying to reason with you, debate or
discuss
anything, in a sane, polite, or resonable manner. So, knowing the
futilitity of
trying to communicate with you, in a resonable fa****on, I will put this in
the
plainest, most common, english that I can muster.
GO **** YOUR SELF!!!
mart.
-----Original Message-----
.......
COMMENT: With or without a condom, might "mart" Murray mean? - And it's
worth
noting too that list owner Per, who earlier has stated it as his aim (in
my
opinion, a quite unnecessary and unproductive one) to avoid abuse, foul
language etc on that list of his, so far has written no comment, negative
or
otherwise, on this posting.
10D) "MATURE MARTHA" IS PUZZLED BUT STILL NOT UNFRIENDLY - AFTER ALL, I'VE
BEEN
GIVING "HER" A COMPLIMENT BY MAINTAINING THAT "SUE" AND "MEIA" ARE REALLY
JOINED TOGETHER WITH THIS, IN MY OPINION, NOW RATHER BETTER "GRANDMOTHER",
WHO
AMONG OTHER THINGS HAS RECENTLY SIGNED IN SUP****T OF THE DR CONGO
To: pttp@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
From:
MarCrow@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:10:12 EDT [or: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:10:12 GMT]
Subject: Re: Re: "Martha"/"Sue"/"Meia"/etc on "Orwell, AIDS Expert"
What do you mean, Rolf? I thought the article had a nice human touch to it
and
that is what I meant. I have my hands full. I am trying to stop a ****pload
of
poisoned peanuts right now, plus I have to work my little job.
Martha
COMMENT: OK, stopping some (actually) poisoned peanuts is not bad either.
But
such questions, after all, precisely are "peanuts" compared to the
dimensions
of, the damage and mass murder daily continued by, the international "AIDS
virus" terror campaign, which can and must be combated precisely by
Leftists
striving to inform themselves on these matters, to begin with. "Martha"
too
gave no indication of wanting at least to check out and try to understand
the
things brought by that website I had been pointing to, www.virusmyth.com.
10E) SOME INITIAL - STILL MUTED - RUMBLINGS FROM ISML-LIST MODERATORS
CITIZEN
HARI & OTHERS
From: "ISML " <hari.kumar@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Mailing-List: list internationalstrugglemarxistleninist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
internationalstrugglemarxistleninist-owner@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:34:04 -0000 [or: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:34:04 GMT]
Subject: MODERATORS REMARKS - A WARNING
I am at this point speaking ONLY on behalf of the moderators of this list
- and
I am not representing my own views on the specifics of the allegations on
HIV
and AIDS around which these personal assaults and thrust has been launched
by
Rolf Martens.
[COMMENT: "Allegations" - as if that most vital information on "AIDS" and
"HIV"
which I had brought, and pointed to where people could get more of, were
some
"negative" propositions.]
Firstly:
1) regarding Cmde Meia - it is frankly irelevant what *** this person is -
we
neither know nor care - But it IS RELEVANT THAT cmde meia has several
times
asked that the name meia NOT be addressed as "meia".
[COMMENT: "Meia" Murray had in fact asked that. But on 14.08, for
instance,
"she" herself, in most terrible "retaliation" against me, had written:
"Rolf
Martens"!]
The reasons as to why such an absurd flagging is reprehensible to ML-ists
-
should be clear to any genuine ML-ist concious of the needs for at least
minimal security.
[COMMENT: Completely *unclear* to me, anyway. If I put quotes, might I
then,
supposing "Meia" were real, be "disclosing" to some intelligence services
that
this was "not" "her/his" real name but a pseudonym?? Or how *is* this
"security" "clarity" to be interpreted??]
2) The allegations that four people - of whom two are on this list - the
other
two are unknown to us of this list - are the same persons is a highly
provocative one.
[COMMENT: "Same persons" I never even said; *no* persons, it was.]
The (as far as we can ascertain - totally false) allegation reduces the
role of
any real debate on serious matters to the level of farce - So a person A
is
"debating-talking" in a note that other people believe is to a seperate
person
B - and all other list-members are participating in an honest belief that
this
is true. What more is this than farce if the A and B are the same person.
[COMMENT: To real people, the identity, or lack of such, of your "debate
partner" is mostly not very im****tant at all - the political standpoints,
the
scientific facts etc are what really matter. I on my part was quite
pleased to
use "Sue" as - a possibly imaginary - dialogue partner, in the vein of
Galileo
etc who often invented such, so as to present "pros" and "contras" etc. In
fact
I addressed no less than a dozen postings to "her" last May, *after* I had
concluded that "she" was probably "just" a ghost - see Info #121en. (Added
in
2008: part 1/8 etc.)]
Do comrades of the list wish to see their time, and their honest
endeavours and
energy - disparaged as a "farce"?
I believe not.
[COMMENT: See my above: Even if you *are* just "talking to" a ghost (and
to
others at the same time), by no means does that which you have to say need
to
be "a farce". And I can understand the disappointment of others if it
turns out
that writers they thought were real persons are not that. But the question
of
whether some such writers *are* "ghosts" or not is NOT dependent on what
*I*
might think or say on this, of course. Nobody "has to" believe me;
everybody
must still judge for him/herself!]
ROLF MARTENS:
Please behave in a ML-ist non-sectarian manner and not in a provocative
manner.
It is my belief that you are courting "explusion" so as to be able to
parade as
a victim.
[COMMENT: And my belief is, that here you were being pretty silly, Hari.
When
did Marxists ever advocate "throwing oneself in front of enemy advancing
tanks", self-flagellation etc?? Where did you ever see an indication
in any of my writings that I were for such things??]
Whatever your motives are - please desist from this childish behaviour. Or
else
I will obtain a sense from the co-moderators and the list - as to our
appropriate actions. All of us have too much to do to to engage in petty
games.
Hari Kumar
COMMENT:
My motive was, an intention to give others a tip (on a thing which I
*perhaps*
might be seeing more clearly than most others, on account of my being
subbed to
several lists and also having some particular earlier experience with
similar
things). This "hint" might then either of course be taken by others as
obviously false, or else taken into consideration as perhaps something to
reflect on, whether it might be true or not, and, if it received some
confirmation or refutation later, what difference that might make in the
respective cases.
When I wrote on 19.07, immediately after the first appearance of "Meia"
Murray:
'"Meia Dawn" probably related to "Sue" and "Martha"', Per replied at once
on
pttp: "OK Rolf! - I have the same ... Hmmm... in English thought!". It's
not
all that difficult to see through such a thing, is it?
Your replying here with a *suppression threat', instead of with arguments
of
some relevance, was really "wimpy", and quite BAD too, citizen Hari.
Didn't I
tell you in the beginning when I subbed to your list that I suspected you
were
quite a bit "wimpier" than you professed to be, concerning debate
openness?
And you clearly did "suspect" that I now would say "I told you so!", since
in
one post immediately after this, you added:
"Cmde Simonson,
I wrote my own views on this matter just now. The principles of this list
appear too 'wimpy' for Rolf. He has a choice.
H"
I didn't violate any of those principles stated for the ISML list. *You*
did,
with this suppression threat.
"Meia" Murray on "her" part was "just a little tired" of the matter, she
wrote
shortly afterwards, addressing Tony:
"Are you saying that Comrade Kumar and I are "imperialist plotters"? Look,
I
just read Rolf's post and am tired enough for this right now. This is
definitely not what I need."
I certainly had not said or implied anything about "imperialist plotters"
in
this context.
10F) "MEIA" MURRAY GRATEFUL FOR MODERATORS' RUMBLINGS AND "SUE" MURRAY'S
STAUNCH SUP****T - BUT WILL THIS BE "SUFFICIENT"?
From: meia_dawn@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mailing-List: list internationalstrugglemarxistleninist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:13:18 -0000 [or: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:13:18 GMT]
Subject: Thanks re Cdes STS and HK
Thank you, Comrades.
If anyone - including Martens - feels that I (and Comrade STS, to whom
this
concerns also) are imperialist secret service infiltrators who should be
ousted
I recommend that they would say it openly and clearly. There is no need to
poison the air with these useless speculations where accusation can
clearly be
heard but not seen.
Meia
COMMENT: If I on my part *had* seen good reason to suspect intelligence
service
involvement, I would have said so. And exposed (or suspected) infiltrators
etc
I have always advocated NOT to oust but to PERSUADE TO STAY AS LONG AS
THEY
ONLY DARE, as, quite possibly, the most excellent
"skeletons-in-the-classrom-corners", and having NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER of
doing
any harm. NOT ONCE have I ever hinted at any desire to get ANY member of
the
merry Murray Funny Family, for instance, kicked out of ANY list, on
account of
their familiness, say. I still want ALL of them to STAY, EVERYWHERE!
10G) "MEIA" "NOT COMFY" IN THE "MORE PUBLIC" LIGHT OF NEWSGROUPS, DOES NOT
REPLY ON ANY OF THEM (I'VE CHECKED), BUT COMPLAINS A BIT TO ISML
"COMRADES"
From: meia_dawn@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mailing-List: list internationalstrugglemarxistleninist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
...
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:57:00 -0000 [or: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:57:00 GMT]
Subject: Re: Rolf the misogynist
An update:
I would recommend those interested would take a look at
"alt.politics.socialism.mao" and "alt.society.revolution" discussion
forums at
Deja.com
I have been quite quiet about this - but I can't stand that this paranoid
nonsense about "multipoisonalities" is forwarded to tens of newsgroups
accross
the globe. Why this labelling on the forums I don't even participate?
[COMMENT: Well, "Meia" at least was on some of those NGs I sent this to,
and
could reply whatever he/she wanted on those others too where he/she had
seen
posts by me.]
I honestly do not wish that whenever I in future arrive to new NG the
first
thing I'll have to do is to explain that I'm not a police infiltrator that
poses sometimes as "Sue", sometimes as "Martha", sometimes as "Meia" and
so on,
to which this is seemingly resulting.
Speaking of experience, the ML community on the web is "little wheel spin
and
spin"; when you start a gossip about someone and spread it this widely it
will
stay with the unfortunate victim forever.
[COMMENT: Whether "gossip" or other things said about a writer will "stay
with"
him/her or not, that depends on many things, not least on what line that
writer
actually turns out to represent politically, by his/her present writings
and
past ones, over some longer period of time perhaps. If all that "gossip"
of the
most "varied" kinds, spread quite worldwidely too, about me, for instance,
since close to 5 years now, had been "staying with" me, I would have a
pretty
heavy burden to bear.]
I usually try to keep my personal feelings about this or that issue out of
these discussions - but this time I truly wish Martens would aknowledge
that
his behaviour has been unfraternal and arrogant and would give us his word
he
would not do it again.
[COMMENT: Well, here I *am* "doing it again". To be "fraternal" to the
bourgeois-reactionary Murray is not very necessary, I think. And suppose I
were
wrong about "you", "Midway Meia", with your "Red Comrades Do***entation
Project" and everything, then I *would* apologize, publicly and on all
those
newsgroups etc too - I've done such things before. But if "you" weren't so
nervous, you wouldn't see it as so "horrible" to be "wrongly" thought to
have
the same "Origin of the Species" as "Sue", "Martha" and some others, would
you?]
--- In internationalstrugglemarxistleninist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"ISML"
<hari.kumar@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
..........
11. THE MERRY MELEE, PART 2
11A) "MEIA" ASKS ME A QUESTION, STILL FEELS MISUNDERSTOOD BUT AT LEAST HAS
"COMRADE SUE" TO DISCUSS THINGS WITH
To: internationalstrugglemarxistleninist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: meia_dawn@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:57:59 -0000 [or: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:57:59 GMT]
Subject: Re: Rolf the misogynist
--- In internationalstrugglemarxistleninist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sue T Simonson
<progressivesociety@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
"Meia - I think the proper way for Rolf to act in this situation is to
apologize and to make a self-criticism."
That's the point I've been trying to make. I think we should all be more
accountable to the others on these lists. We have our disagreements, but
they
should not result to personal slanders and behind-the-back-gossip.
[COMMENT: I agree on this paragraph, in particular on that about
behind-the-back stuff. When criticizing or otherwise commenting on
someone, I
on my part have always taken care to do this to his/her face too.]
If you browsed through the posts we've sent while you were away, you'll
notice
that I've for several times tried to make peace with Rolf - I even
apologized
him. At one time, I thought it was me who should do self-criticism (this
relates to the introduction post on this list I sent to other NGs and
which
Rolf said gave the impression that this list is "sectarian") - but Rolf
seems
actually be the one lacking in it.
As a reply to my apologies to all members of this list whose cause I felt
I
misrepresented - since I thought it was my duty as an MList to publicly
admit
my mistake and was an attempt to advance solidarity and fraternal spirit
here
-, Rolf replied with that post which ridiculed the entire spirit of my
attempt
with it's note on "verification and detection committee".
[COMMENT: No, no, that part was written by Ulla Natasha Persson, who - in
contrast to you, for instance - is absolutely real and honest-to-Marx and
who
is the perspicacious leader of the Nobelvaegen Kommittee for Verifikation
and
Detektion (please spell it korrektly!) here at the street in Malmoe,
Sweden,
where I too live. At some later point(s), she may be borrowing my
computer.]
I've the impression that Rolf has no interest to evolve or learn from
others -
thus far he has hardly ever replied to anyone here - and when he does, the
comments are usually "you disagree with me since you have not yet seen the
light and I'm here to bring it to you." I would like to ask him: is he
here to
debate and to learn - or does he consider this list as yet another where
he can
post "Unite!"-infos. (I don't deny that some of them are pretty
interesting in
some respects)
[COMMENT: Thanks for that last, "Meia"! Actually, my intention is to do
both:
Post some of these Infos etc *and* learn too. Didn't I expressly thank
*you*,
for instance, for showing me that list of literature on the Lysenko
controversy, which I realize your inventor must know much more about than
do -
so far - I?
As to the posts on those lists -
[Quoting "Sue":]
"is it possible for you to copy and paste these to me? I don't have access
to
the web on this computer and a few times I tried to access those sites at
the
library, I was not able to log on."
It's the same post as here. I don't know at how many lists is it on - I
saw it
only on those two mentioned, but Deja allows mass-mails to many other
lists, so
thus I do not know, did not check. The impression I got was that Rolf is
active
on about every list with revolutionary content - thus I can't say how many
people have read this.
Regards, MD
[COMMENT: I do hope you're keeping "Sue" abreast of developments, "Meia"!]
11B) "MEIA" GETS A LITTLE PISSED-OFF AT PER, AND TRIES TO PRETEND THAT
"NOBODY
CAN SHOW ANYTHING"
To:
internationalstrugglemarxistleninist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: meia_dawn@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:24:53 -0000 [or: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:24:53 GMT]
Subject: Re: SV: Respect comrade's privacy
--- In internationalstrugglemarxistleninist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Per Rasmussen"
<pera@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
"Dear Friend and Comrade!
Take it easy now!
We are no party - yet - and we are not at an Oxford meeting.
Don't prove - you cannot do this on the Internet.
Show."
[COMMENT:
Well, Per, you've said before that one "cannot" *prove* anything on the
Internet. But yes, some things at least it absolutely *is* possible to
prove.
But your call for others to SHOW things - by what line they follow in
their
postings, by what ways in which they try to interact with others, to team
up
with them, or perhaps to criticize them or combat them, and to show, by
your
writings over a longer period of time, whether you are consistent or not,
want
to learn or not, can recognize and perhaps correct errors you make or not
-
this is quite good, of course, and is one im****tant way for writers who're
being *wrongly* *****sed by others to show that these others *were*
wrong.]
"My name is Per Rasmussen
I live in Denmark
Skolevej 22 B 4720 Pręstų
"Tlf.: 0045 55 99 33 29"
Comrade Rasmussen.
Did it ever occur to you that some of us *may have pretty good reasons*
not to
give out personal details?
You may live in a country that is red to the bone if compared to US. BUT
if
you would live in a country where Communists have been locked to mental
asylyms long before Khrushchev started similar campaigns in the USSR, (I
know
at least one lobotomia case) and where mock trials of political activists
where
they're sentenced to 90 years in prison for "stealing a candy-bar" or
something
similar are part of everyday life, and where torture and beatings of
political
prisoners is an ordinary game, and where there was once TWO Black Panther
parties - other FBI's, other was real - you might be little more careful
about
what you're saying.
[COMMENT: I at least have never asked any writer, not those whom I'm
saying are
"cyber ghosts" either, to give out any personal details whatsoever
publicly.
I'm pretty certain Per has not been trying to do this either. By
"showing", I'm
certain, he means quite other things - approximately the same as I above.]
I'm sure this list is already monitored as majority of it's participants
also
probably are - so thus your call for everyone to give these details out is
very
unthoughtfull, and USELESS since it is the politics, not names, that
matters.
[COMMENT: What "call for everyone" to give out "these details"?? There's
NO
such "call" at all in the quote you brought from Per. So here YOU'RE
SIMPLY
LYING about what he actually wrote, "Meia" Murray. STUPIDLY too, since ALL
can
SEE with their own eyes that you ARE lying. Getting a bit desperate now,
huh?]
And imagine if there would be participants living in countries where
imprisonment and executions of Communists are even more common than in
America
- like India or Peru, for example. If they would response to this call of
yours, that would be their last post.
[COMMENT: That quite SWINISH lie of yours, ONCE MORE, Murray.]
And on the other hand, some of us simply feel more comfortable to remain
anonymous, for various other reasons. WHy not to allow them do so? Since
MLL
has open archive, I've sometimes taken a look at it - and you've never
demanded
that "contracorriente" or "carpenter" would give out personal details.
[COMMENT: Now it's the THIRD TIME around on your part.]
(And by the way, to launch Rolf-type paranoia, how do I know you are not a
foreign-based CIA agent, considering that some phony "Peruvian exile
organizations" set up by RIM are active in Denmark? And how do I know this
entire issue of addresses and others is not entirely a CIA hoax, and
they're
not really based on America or something similar? And so on.)
Meia
-
COMMENT:
So it's "PARANOIA" too now, miserable Murray-puppeteer? What was it your
"Meia"
just said about "lobotomy" etc?
But also YES, of course those addresses given by Per and me, for instance,
in
Denmark respectively Sweden, and the one given by your "Mature Martha" in
Saint
Cloud, Minnesota - on principle, some ELABORATE HOAXES with such things,
in
order to make others perhaps falsely think you've "got nothing to hide",
are
NOT IMPOSSIBLE either. However, there ARE ways to CHECK ON this - and your
PRETENDING you DON'T EVEN KNOW this is one other childishness and further
sign
of your desperation.
As for agents - yes, experience shows that quite "smart" such have been
able to
remain undercover for some time, at least. But here that which Per DOES
say
comes in: The POLITICAL LINE of a writer, SHOWN UP over some longer period
of
time, will give others some pretty good clues as to whether he, she or it
perhaps might be a CIA or other agent or whether more likely not.
11C) BUT "MEIA" AND "SUE" NEED FEAR NO MORE; *HELP IS ON ITS WAY*, AND *IN
THE
NICK OF TIME*! HERE COMES LIST NEWBIE "QUESTION MARK" (SCOTT)! (WHO POSTED
FIRST TIME 2 DAYS AGO, ON 16.08.) AND *HE'S* NOT TO BE FOOLED AROUND WITH!
To: internationalstrugglemarxistleninist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Hantayo000@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 07:59:35 EDT [or: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:59:35 GMT]
Subject: (no subject)
Comrades, I am sickened by this assinine stupidity that has been
perpetrated by
ROLF. I have refused to read or even concern myself with his garbage and
bablings. What I have read is intended to be disruptive and to undermine
the
purpose of this forum. Nothing he pretends to offer is constructive to our
tasks to establish party unity or raise the level of class consciousness.
Nothing he offers serves the purpose of training professional
revolutionaries
to be effective in the accomplishment of the above mentioned tasks. He
personally attacks and slanders people without facts because he is a
demogogic
dogmatist. His intention can only be seen is to be disprutive and create
division. I refuse to accept his apologies to Comrades Simonson and Meia
as
this apology will never come anyway. His intention is to disrupt therefore
he
will never apologize. I offer my apology to these Comrades and offer my
vote to
IMMEDIATELY EXPELL this agent of the "political police" or you have my
resignation from this forum.
In Unity Mark Scott
COMMENT:
Yeah, now that's what I call talking, Question Mark! Such postings are
what I
really like on a list!
Now let's see what citizen Hari and the other list moderators will say
about
its contents and style!
11D) WELL, HARI AND THE OTHERS DON'T EVEN GET TIME TO CHEW ON THAT LAST
ONE,
BEFORE TOUGH GUY "QUESTION MARK" HAS HEATED UP EVEN MORE! NOW TIME FOR THE
*ABSOLUTELY REAL MCCOY*! THE M-L MELEE IS GETTING MARKEDLY MERRY!
To: internationalstrugglemarxistleninist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Hantayo000@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 08:42:44 EDT [or: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:42:44 GMT]
Subject: Boycott and Expell
[I've broken up the below tough stuff, written as one long paragraph, into
some
shorter ones, so as to make it a little easier for readers to digest. -
RM]
Comrades, this forum is outstanding and there is much in the way of
outstanding
possiblities to change the conditions and contradictions we are forced to
face
because of the nature of capitalism. That is why we are here.
We cannot allow ourselves to be side-tracked on why we have entered into
this
forum, to establish a base agreement as to how to unite. Each and everyone
of
us, no matter how much we may disagree on certain points, do agree that
our
enemy is capitalism, we agree that this enemy must be thoroughly destroyed
through violent and armed revolution because this enemy forces it upon us
through its own nature using its fascist police and military forces.
[COMMENT: See - "violent and armed revolution" etc! Not bad, huh?]
We agree that we need to establish unity to decide the strategy and
tactics to
accomplish the objective of overthrowing capitalism and being victorious
in
establi****ng socialism. We agree that we need to discuss different
possiblities
as to how to establish this unity. We should also agree that we will never
completely agree on every single minute detail, and that is acceptable,
that is
why we should conduct ourselves as professional revolutionaries that hold
to
the highest and most advanced understanding of Marxism-Leninism.
[COMMENT: *Professional* revolutionaries - quite right too!]
We must conduct ourselves as professional revolutionaries if we are going
to be
successful in winning over the m*****. We must conduct ourselves as
professional revolutionaries if we are going to be successful in drawing
out of
the working class the most advanced of them to train them to become
professional revolutionaries.
[COMMENT: Yeah - nice encores of "professional"! You want to make certain
nobody misses the point. And so far, I absolutely do agree with you,
"Question
Mark". No irony is intended in this.]
Lenin tells us that "The character of any organization is naturally and
inevitably determined by the content of its activity." If we are going to
be
succesful at unity, if we are going to be successful at proving ourselves
to
the working class that we are in fact worthy of being their vanguard, we
must
abolish our childish and amatuerish manners, thinking and conductiong
ourselves.
[COMMENT: "Amateurish", that is precisely the opposite of professional,
yes.
The intellectual capacities of your audience you at least are not
overrating!]
It is clear that certain individuals in this forum [AHA! - RM] have no
desire
to conduct themselves in this professional manner because they are not
Marxist-Leninists, they are not even revisionists because that implies
that at
some point they held certain Marxist-Leninists views.
[COMMENT: Sorry, that last is bull****, "Q-Mark". Revisionists by no means
need
ever have held any Marxist views.]
These individuals are nothing more than agents of the capitalists and the
"political police" whose sole intention is to undermine and discredit us
as
professional revolutionaries. The reason for this is because the
capitalists
fear us.
[COMMENT: Well, perhaps *not* precisely *"you"*, Q-Markie.]
They know their destruction is inevitable [Yes! - RM] and will resort to
all
tactics at their disposal to prolong their survival for as long as
possible.
Their system is constant crumbling before them [precisely - RM] and they
fear
our [now well....- RM] success so it is only natural that they will seek
to
hinder our [hm - RM] forward movent to socialism and the unity needed to
accomplish this.
If we [who was that again? - RM] believe that Marxism-Leninism is a
scientific
theory then we [or some people at least - RM] must believe that our [too
much
ow-ow-ow - RM] success is inevitable. The capitalists aceept this, that is
why
they are constantly trying to stop us [or some people - RM].
They fear us [or rather, the *actual* revolutionaries - RM] as
professional
revolutionaries that is why they make numerous attempts to undermine our
efforts, that is why they resort to their fascist tactics of repression
against.
[COMMENT: Such as, for instance, trying to get the actual Marxists off the
discussion forums.]
We [who? - RM ] will be succesful therefore we must ignore and boycott
these
attempts by expelling ROLF from this forum. We do not need to waste our
time
proving ROLF wrong as his accomplice RASMUSSEN would have us do.
[COMMENT: Of course not! And as I already said, Per, it really feels nice
to be
co-targeted, by this eloquent writer, together with you!]
This is just another tactic to undermine and side-track that which should
be
our primary focus and task.....UNITY. If RASMUSSEN wants to associate with
ROLF
then this should serve as his warning that this dispicable bourgeois
alliance
is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.
[COMMENT: Precisely! The logic in this brilliant piece of really
proletarian
reasoning is unassailable!]
We cannot allow ourselves to be led off on tangents which are designed to
hinder our forward movement to UNITY and SOCIALIST VICTORY. We must focus
on
these two most imperative tasks. I most vehemently oppose any further
allowance
of these provocatuers to engage and disrupt this forum.
[COMMENT: "Provocatuers"! - I like this innovative spelling too! Back in
1996,
good old "Quispe" and his "alter ego" "Marcellina Ccorimanya" both used to
write "provocautors". But that was in the past. Hooray Murray for
"provocatuers"!]
I DEMAND their expulsion immediately.
In Unity Mark Scott
COMMENT: That's more like it, more to the point than those amateurish,
even
"sissyish" perhaps, approaches of "Sue Dawn" and "Meia T Simonson"!
"Question
Mark" Scott may be a "list newbie", but he's certainly a "PRO" - just what
those amateurs needed now!
12. THE MERRY MELEE, PART 3
12A) A QUITE BAD - I HAVE TO TELL YOU! - REPLY BY PER
To: <internationalstrugglemarxistleninist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
From: "Per Rasmussen" <pera@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 16:19:55 +0200 [or: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 14:19:55 GMT]
Subject: SV: Boycott and Expell
"... ROLF wrong as his accomplice RASMUSSEN would have us do. This is just
another tactic to undermine and side-track that which should be our
primary
focus and task.....UNITY. If RASMUSSEN wants to associate with ROLF then
this
should serve as his warning that this dispicable bourgeois alliance is
unacceptable and will not be tolerated. We cannot allow ourselves to be
led off
on tangents which are designed to hinder our forward movement to UNITY and
SOCIALIST VICTORY. We must focus on these two most imperative tasks. I
most
vehemently oppose any further allowance of these provocatuers to engage
and
disrupt this forum. I DEMAND their expulsion immediately."
Dear friend and Comrade!
[COMMENT:
WHAT goddamn-bloody "friend and Comrade"??
Perhaps you see clearly now, citizen Per, why *I* am NOT - at least not
today -
calling you "comrade"?
Here we have a very clear case of an *antagonistic* contradiction, one
between
proletariat and bourgeoisie, and you, basically, are placing yourself on
the
*bourgeois-reactionary* side, the *Nazi-type* side even, in this conflict
-
even if you do show some contradictions too to Mr "Question Mark", to
whose
ridiculous howling you in the main are *capitulating*.]
It is not very must you can stand! Side-track... are you ill or what?
[COMMENT:
No, no, to talk of "illness" here is sidetracking it all, it's really
"scared-kid stuff" or something, to put it "nicely".
Here is appearing a typical ARCH-ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE - or, well, it would
have
been, if tough-guy "Question Mark" had been real. A KICK TO SMASH HIS
TEETH OUT
- politically - is what's absolutely required of a Marxist by way of reply
to
such a person (" ").
Now OK, I should also qualify this a little perhaps, since it's possible
that
you're suspecting "Q-Mark" precisely is not so very real, Per, and thus
aren't
taking "him" quite seriously. But on principle, what I said above must
apply.]
Take it easy...Stick [to] what you think serve our common goals - and
don't
make any alliance between Rolf and I! Grow up - and let['s] go on with
some
useful!
[COMMENT: OK, Per, I too do hold that on the question of Marxism, on that
of
proletarian revolution, there IS no alliance between you and me either.
Here
you're assuring "Question Mark" that no such alliance exists.]
Don't take thing personal that not is personal - and don't make
non-personal
stuff into a Great matter of what?
Don't act more paranoid than Rolf can be....
[COMMENT:
As I said before, such Khrushchovite (and yes, also "old-time"-bourgeois)
nastinesses, on principle at least threatening me with a dope needle or a
mental hospital, I absolutely take the most strenuous objection to. I do
know
that some people are using such terms as "paranoid" in a more "joking"
manner,
not really meaning that which the bourgeois-phony-"scientific" thing
really
means. But I'd like to tell you, citizen Per: People with any aspirations
whatsoever at being Leftists should *not* bandy such terms about at all.
And please misunderstand me correctly too - I *don't* feel "hit" or
"threatened" at all by this thing of yours; it's basically a (small)
boomerang
boom-boom-booming a little into your own face!]
And again - the case is easy to solve: Show the man that he make a big
mistake!
[COMMENT: Yes! Here you're saying something correct and im****tant, Per.
But in
my judgment, this still doesn't "save" your reply to "Q-Mark" as a whole.]
I am glad that we not is in a middle of a strike and you react this way
when it
comes to some right or wrong statements! Provocateurs? Have you ever meet
a
real one?
[COMMENT: Not so bad either.]
Now - let us take it easy now - ok?
[COMMENT: NO!! Enemy shoots at you - you shoot back. Wrong place to
propose
ceasefire!]
-----------------------
Yours in solidarity
Per Rasmussen
[COMMENT: Whose? It must mean "Question Mark's", mustn't it?]
Cuba SI!
http://w1.1559.telia.com/~u155900388/
Viden er Magt! - Magten til folket!
http://w1.1559.telia.com/~u155900373/
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Hantayo000@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:Hantayo000@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
18. august 2000 14:43
.........
........
In Unity Mark Scott
12B) NOW STRENGTHENED BY THE BRILLIANT "QUESTION MARK'S-IST"
ARGUMENTATION,
"SUE" TRIES SOME HARDER "KICKS" AGAINST ME, AND AGAINST PER TOO
To: internationalstrugglemarxistleninist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Sue T Simonson <progressivesociety@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:11:27 EDT [or: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 16:11:27 GMT]
Subject: argumentum ad hominem ad nauseum
To all,
Many people, myself incuded, join various lists anonymously, and we say
so.
None of the lists that I have joined stipulate that I must give my name,
address, phone number, etc.
Now all of a sudden some people are being asked to do so to prove
ridiculous
accusations.
[COMMENT: NO. As seen above, that was the ridiculous LIE by "Meia" Murray
(see
above, posting 11B), which "Sue" Murray at once pretends to believe. It's
one
of the "advantages" of having a big ghost "family" - stupid Murray thinks
-
that you can "establish" some lies as "truths" by "quoting" your own
clone, or
rather, clown. It won't succeed, of course.]
Per - if you wish to make it a rule for your lists, why don't you say so
to
begin with? [Same silly LIE again - RM]
This is just an example of the old "argumentum ad hominem." If you cannot
beat
your opponent in debate, attack her on personal matters.
But Per says:
"Don't take thing personal that not is personal - and don't make
non-personal
stuff into a Great matter of what?"
[COMMENT: *I* say: Let's make all political matters into *multipoisonal*
ones -
thus we'll get more votes!]
["Sue" quoting Per:] "And again - the case is easy to solve: Show the man
that
he make a big mistake"!
[COMMENT: And what has "Sue" got to "argue with" against this? Nothing.]
Real imperialist agents, of course, would be very pissed off for being
"outed"
and might want to do something about it. After all, Per and Rolf advertise
their addresses.
Or real imperiailst agents would be delighted with the good work Per and
Rolf
are doing, and perhaps would even reward them.
[COMMENT: Oh yeah? Name one such thing, then, which might have suited the
reactionaries!]
As far as expelling them is concerned, I think that Rolf should
automatically
be dumped the next time he attacks people, because the warning was given.
Sue
[COMMENT: A clearly anti-Marxist statement, also as it stands. Of course
*reactionary* people *should* be attacked. What sort of a "revolutionary"
argues that "nobody" should be?]
[Quoting Per:]
"Dear Friend and Comrade!
Take it easy now!
We are no party - yet - and we are not at an Oxford meeting.
Don't prove - you cannot do this on the Internet.
Show.
My name is Per Rasmussen
.............."
12C) REPLY BY PER TO SUE, WITH SOME POINTS IN IT
To: <internationalstrugglemarxistleninist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
From: "Per Rasmussen" <pera@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 20:46:50 +0200 [or: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 18:46:50 GMT]
Subject: SV: argumentum ad hominem ad nauseum
Dear Sue!
Dear Friend and Comrade!
This is not a movie!
I repeat bad movie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[COMMENT: Well, that can be disputed. But you probably mean, Per, you
*don't
want it to* be a bad movie. And I have the same objection to this reply of
yours as to that to "Q-Mark": Lack of differentiation against the howls
from
reaction.]
"Real imperialists agents..."
What are you talking about?
People that we don't want to go in jail or something like that is not on
the
Internet at ex. Egroups.com!!!!!!!!
You are acting like a child having read to must [Added in 2008: Probably
meaning: too much - RM] Jack London!
[COMMENT: Not all that wrong.]
I must say - it is very easy to make you spin around and 1-2-3 jump from
some
political and practical stuff to the personal stuff!
If one want to find out what computer you are using - well then one can do
it -
as easy as we write to this list!
[COMMENT: Yes. Precisely. That's why "Sue's" "argumentation" is childish
too. A
good point.]
So again - take it easy!!!!!!!!!!
Your check on MLL is not necessary: Carpenter is a Carpenter and has
before
checked people from China etc. And his real name is easy to get...
[Added in 2008: Referring here to the mailing list MLL, which I've now
seen
existed already then, from March 2000 on, in fact. But at that time, in
August
2000, I wasn't subscribing to that list, didn't know about it and hadn't
bothered to check out what "MLL" meant. - RM]
So - AGAIN let us stop this bad kinder-movie - Try to give arguments etc.
What will happen with us/you when it is real enemies we/you are against?
[COMMENT: This *I* could ask *you* too, Per - see comments on your reply
to
"Question Mark".]
-----------------------
Yours in solidarity
Per Rasmussen
........
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Sue T Simonson [mailto:progressivesociety@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
18. august 2000 18:11
........
12D) THE SECOND RETURN OF TOUGH-GUY "QUESTION MARK" - AND I HOPE READERS
ARE
NOT BORED TO DEATH ALREADY; THESE TIRADES IMO *ARE* INSTRUCTIVE TOO
To: internationalstrugglemarxistleninist@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Hantayo000@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:08:19 EDT [or: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:08:19 GMT]
Subject: Enemies of the People
Greetings Sue,
Thank you for your sup****tive response regarding my resignation. I was
very
angry with this completely bourgeois display of disruptiveness and its
intention. It is not tolerable and must stand condemned by all
professional
[had you forgotten this guy is a pro? - RM] revolutionaries, which is why
I
spoke as harshly as I did.
I will however resign from any organization that conducts itself in such
an
abhorrent and nauseating manner. I realize that this forum is not to blame
must
it must be understood by all this conduct will not be tolerated
whatsoever.
These two mindless morons [NICE! - RM] know the principles of this forum.
I understand Hari having given them a warning. I am not Hari and had this
taken
place in my presence in a personal face-to-face type forum, I assure you
they
would have been hauled off by the coroner and it would have been me being
the
one expelled.
I firmly believe in fairness but I equally believe in destroying my
enemies.
[COMMENT: Nice! That's the way the revolutionaries want it too: They
believe in
destroying, not "their" enemies, but those of the people. And who will get
the
vast majority behind them?]
I believe in the fairness of being able to disagree, this is only correct
but I
refuse to except this disgusting behaviour [like what, more precisely? -
RM] as
it has nothing to do with the issues of unity and deciding a program of
action
to overthrow capitalism and establish socialist victory.
I was a militarist and guardian of capitalism for 10 years. I am still a
militarist only now, a socialist one and will guard socialism with my
life. It
is not within me to waver at the possible consequences of my commitment to
socialist revolution.
[COMMENT: The silly reactionary cyber ghost trying to scare people with
some
"pro" military action. But the people have "pros" too, and are many more.]
I am weak in my "academic" grasp of Marxism-Leninism [you don't say! -
RM], but
it is growing. I am strong [sorry, puff of smoke! - RM], however, in my
grasp
of the need for a militant organization. I can almost accept a revisionist
for
they at least declare their anti-Marxist-Leninist stance, what I abhor is
the
dogmatist and their demogoguery as displayed by ROLF and RASMUSSEN. ...
[COMMENT: Now really warming up to it!]
".....I will never tire of repeating that demagogues are the worst enemies
of
the working class. The worst enemies, because they arouse base instincts
in the
m*****, because the unenlightened worker is unable to recognise his
enemies in
men who represent themselves, and sometimes sincerely so, as his friends.
The
worst enemies, because in the period of disunity and vacillation, when our
movement is just beginning to take shape, nothing is easier than to employ
demagogic methods to mislead the m*****, who can realise their error only
later
by bitter experience."
I share this sentiment of Lenin exactly. As a former guardian of
capitalism I
was the tool and agent of its fascism and am guilty of crimes against the
people.
[COMMENT: "So I can now scare you - BOOH!"]
I am enlightened now I will exercise the same militant and aggressiveness
against the enemies of the working class and in doing so I will not
half-step
in delivering my wrath against them. I made a vow in stepping forward
again
that I will not play at revolution. I am not an intellectual or an
academic,
[COMMENT: So how come your style has such an unmistakably close similarity
to
those of all the other Murray ghosts?]
I am a revolutionary that believes in the literal overthrow and
destruction of
capitalism and its agents through violent armed revolution. There is no
peaceful road. To quote Lenin again, "A person who is flabby and shaky on
questions of theory, who has a narrow outlook, who pleads the spontaneity
of
the m***** as an excuse for his own sluggishness, who resembles a
trade-union
secretary more than a spokesman of the people, who is unable to conceive
of a
broad and bold plan that would command the respect even of opponents, and
who
is inexperienced and clumsy in his own professional art - the art of
combating
the political police - such a man is not a revolutionary, but a wretched
amateur!"
[COMMENT: This we heard already: No amateurs! Only pros!]
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