Re: Mass murder, jokes and immigration [WAS: Re: Massive Starvation

On Sat, 10 May 2008, Stephen R. Diamond wrote:


> As an answer to vngelis, I think your argument--a kind of reductio
(missed by 
> its detractors)--lacks real merit. You essentially argued that IF one
thinks 
> the settlers ought to be expelled, it would make more sense to massacre
them. 
> (Why is everyone so calm in the face of "One settler, one bullet"?
Doesn't 
> that *actually* express a mass murder perspective?)

Good point. Nobody--least of all the ANC--really took the PAC too 
seriously about this. It was more a cry of despair. A disorienting 
one, however, which must have damaged the movement.

> The argument misses its 
> mark, because in vngelis's scheme, there is a later return of the
settlers, 
> whom the nationalist government can now engage with as equals. Of
course, the 
> vngelis-demonizers ignore that part of vngelis's perspective.

I did notice this. Formally speaking at least, DF's position is 
actually worse than Vangelis's, which is why I reacted to it so 
strongly.

>
> My own quarrel with vngelis comes down to his being ultimately a
Pabloite. He 
> is a liquidationist into bourgeois nationalist movements. But he is
correct 
> about the course of bourgeois nationalist movements, if they are not 
> transformed under proletarian leader****p, a prospect he has essentially
given 
> up on. The course of pure bourgeois national movements *will* involve
mass 
> expulsions--AT BEST. Probably a lot worse. Does anyone imagine that the 
> Hebrew settlers in Palestine would suffer massacres after a victory of 
> Palestinian nationalism? It is not the job of Trotskyists to approve of
such 
> events but hopefully to prevent them by pu****ng a revolutionary
socialist 
> program, not a mere nationalist program. But if such events do occur, 
> Marxists will be faced with a choice: sup****t the self-determination of
the 
> Palestinians, despite our regret at its non-socialist direction, or
recoil in 
> horror, placing the moral issue of mass murder above every other 
> consideration.

This does not follow, as third world nationalists are far from the 
only people in the world to carry out mass murder. In fact, 
historically speaking, it is the imperialists who carry out murder on 
the largest scale.

In the particular case of Israel/Palestine there are interspersed 
peoples both of which have a claim on the land, rendering the problem 
unsolvable through the simple formula of national self-determination.

> So despite vngelis's ultimate anti-Trotskyism, I critically 
> sup****t him in such discussions, because he is the only one who will
face 
> what a nationalist revolution will mean and remains dedicated to
sup****ting 
> it with his eyes open.
>
> When David argues that no nationalist movement calling for expulsions
(or 
> worse), he is merely being as obtuse as he remains in the immigration
debate. 
> He refuses to see what is probably before his eyes, in the latter case 
> because statistics aren't collected with reference to the points in 
> contention; in the former, because nationalist movements aren't about to

> announce their plans for mass murder
>
> And those serious about taking a "moral" position against mass murder
should 
> drop their sup****t of military tactics that call for treating settler 
> populations as fair military game. That includes Hezbollah, Hamas, and
Al 
> Qaeda, conditional sup****t of the last I hereby relinquish.

That represents a smidgin of progress, something one rarely sees in 
these discussions.

-jh-
>
> -- 
> srd