On May 14, 6:34=A0pm, Vngelis <meberr...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On May 14, 3:06 am, nada <dwalters...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 13, 5:52 pm, dusty <trackdu...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > On May 14, 9:40 am, nada <dwalters...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > > This would be a HUGE discussion and probably can't happen on APST.
>
> > > > I don't disagree that much with what you say. I think it has to be
> > > > contextualized around what, first, is the *problem* and second,
*the=
> > > > solutions*.
>
> > > > In that, are their technological fixes for alternatives to
petroleum=
> > > > based trans****tation fuel?
>
> > > > Can we have unlimited electrical energy available?
>
> > > > The problems are obvious, almost all of which is socially based.
Loo=
k
> > > > at China: air pollution the worst in the world, buying up huge
> > > > petroleum reserves and then burning it all up, along with coal.
It's=
> > > > totally anarchistic. Same with the US, just slightly more
controlled=
> > > > with pollution regulations but basically 'consuming'.
>
> > > > What I reject Dusty is the "small is beautiful", 'decentralized
> > > > energy' 'walk to work' 'consume less' 'let's all burn cow dung to
he=
at
> > > > hour homes' solutions. The sort of thing your Socialist Alliance
dow=
n
> > > > there advocates in their 'grand plan' to phase out coal. Not gonna
> > > > happen.
>
> > > > There are two keys to solving this stuff:
>
> > > > 1. social change (destroying imperialism and implementing
socialism =
on
> > > > a world scale) and
> > > > 2. create vast amounts of limitless energy.
>
> > > > If you solve these two issues, most everything else can fall into
> > > > place.
>
> > > > I tend to be somewhat skeptical about climate change...not that
it's=
> > > > not happening, per se, but whether we can acutally do anything
about=
..
>
> > > > D.
>
> > > That piece of information I posted contained errors that greatly
> > > weakened its impact. It should have read:
>
> > > "Work this one out:
> > > =95 =A0 =A0 Australia sells natural gas for 4 cents per litre
covering=
all
> > > costs including compression of the gas BUT Australia faces a $25
> > > billion trade deficit in petroleum products by 2015.
> > > =95 =A0 =A0 Australia pays anywhere from about $8 billion to $25
billi=
on to
> > > im****t the oil and gets a paltry $4 billion for the gas that is sold
> > > to
> > > overseas countries."
> > > To which I add:
> > > =95 =A0 =A0 "Expert opinion indicates that such natural gas could be
s=
old at
> > > 40 cents a litre at the bowser.
> > > =95 =A0 =A0 Australia has abundant reserves of gas, enough to last
aro=
und a
> > > century and a half."
>
> > > The point I make here is that no national government loyal to its
> > > people could permit such a travesty - they are clearly in the grip
of
> > > the oil companies.
>
> > > More generally there is a need to incor****ate energy policies
> > > socialist programs. But the bottom line would have to be
"Nationalise
> > > the Oil Companies.
>
> > > The danger with the kinds of policies coming from the Greens'
movement=
> > > and their "Trotskyist" immitators is that in projecting reformist
> > > policies almost devoid of class politics (a king of popular front)
on
> > > energy they provide a cover for those who would massively hike
energy
> > > prices. These people in the energy companies are not fools though
they=
> > > couldn't give a damn about whales, reefs and the like - so they
> > > cynically exploit the possibilities opened up by the new climate of
> > > public opinion - its the kind of climate change they thrive on.
>
> > I never realised Aus. had that much NG. Why then do they burn all that
> > coal for power? NG is much cleaner all the way around.
>
> > The problem with the "Trotskyist" solutions down there you mention are
> > a lot different than 'reformist' solutions, Dusty. They simply don't
> > understand the science or physics, even at the base level I do, and
> > think the wind and sun can provide the base load power needed to
> > shutdown the coal industry. It's simply crazy and will cost
> > Australians billions of dollars they need not spent.
>
> > David
>
> Peak Oil proponents are funded by the oil industry. Every time there
> is cyclical downturn leading to a full blown depression book emerge
> about the ...end of Oil. I have one from a couple of years ago. This
> then creates the psychology of a collapsing market and prices shoot
> through the roof. Oil here which is sold for cars is taxed at 80p for
> every litre which is then sold on the forecourts for =A31.10. Like the
> tax on =A0gated entrances to walled cities in feudal times governments
> tax trans****t to raise revenue as they are in power only thanks to the
> oil gangsters from Texas. One can never climb up the greasy pole
> without at first being found out in some compromising position.
>
> Greece has sun****ne for most of the year and apart from a few solar
> powered heaters for water on peoples roofs there are no ways of
> introducing alternative energy for the government shoots them =A0all
> down.
> vngelis
Spot on.
Greece. Yeah, that's the place bathed in the most magnificent - light
where you meet plenty of people, young and old who have individual
opinions on the most complex political opinions. Pity they have
governments disloyal to the majority of the people and their culture
and servile to governments representing the transnationals.
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