On Jul 17, 3:02 am, John Holmes <jhol...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> This interesting posting does not mention Vangelis's group (or the
> Spartacist group for that matter.) So presumably it is at any rate not
> very big.
>
> -jh-
>
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008, Vngelis wrote:
> > Greek Trotskyists
>
> > I had discussions with activists from the Greek Trotskyist
> > organisation OKDE. Other AWL members had met OKDE people at the Lutte
> > Ouvriere fete in 2006, but this was my first contact with them.
>
> > The discussion was limited by the OKDE comrades' restricted English
> > and my complete ignorance of Greek, but here's a re****t on what I
> > could gather. The OKDE comrades are keen to continue the discussion.
>
> > The OKDE was previously affiliated with the Mandelite Fourth
> > International, but has broken away in protest at the self-mutation of
> > that grouping from revolutionary politics "into a 'pluralistic'
> > organisation which fights for socialism... [replacing tactics towards
> > anti-capitalist groupings] by merging with those organisations, or
> > even with radical petty-bourgeois currents... implementation of a
> > popular front policy... participation of the Brazilian section in the
> > bourgeois Lula government and [vote of confidence by] the Italian
> > section in the imperialist Prodi government..."
>
> > However, the OKDE comrades said, they found the "alternative Fourth
> > Internationals", Morenist and Lambertist, no good, and they want to
> > link up with left-wing groups within the sections of the Mandelite
> > Fourth International, in France and Ireland for example.
>
> > I put it to them that they were right about the Mandelite FI being
> > "liquidationist", but it was not new. In the 1950s and 1960s its
> > groups were functionally, for the most part, promoters of the project
> > of a sort of broad left wing in either the Communist Party or the
> > social-democratic party (depending on cir***stances) of the countries
> > in which they operated. On the international scale, they were
> > "liquidationist" successively towards the Yugoslav CP, the Chinese CP,
> > the Vietnamese CP, the Castroite current, the Sandinistas, etc.
>
> > The fundamental disorientation was the idea (to which they held from
> > 1948 to the 1980s) of an ever-advancing "rise of the World
> > Revolution", to which they should orient, a "rise" which was
> > manifested not through working-class activity but through the conquest
> > of power by Stalinist (or Stalinist-tending) forces in a series of
> > poorer countries.
>
> > Thus the debacle in 1989-91. The "rise of the World Revolution"
> > culminated in a huge (and much, and sincerely, hoped-for) rising of
> > the peoples of Eastern Europe and the USSR; and when the dust settled,
> > all the supposed "conquests of the World Revolution" had vanished -
> > had been proved to be a matter of illusion.
>
> > After the debacle, the Mandelite orientation to whatever seems most
> > dynamic in the general "process" remains - but their confidence in
> > that "process" being "revolutionary" is deeply shaken.
>
> > The OKDE comrades said they agreed with what I said, though how clear
> > my argument was when translated into Greek I do not know.
>
> > A recent do***ent of theirs made a lot of their condemnation of the
> > Mandelite FI's disintegration depend on the idea that it happens at a
> > time of "the deep crisis of the world capitalist system, the rising
> > course of class struggles".
>
> > My view, I said to them, is that political liquidationism is wrong at
> > all times, not just times of crisis. A condition which continues for
> > 35 years without a break - which is how they describe "the crisis" -
> > is (whatever else it may be) not a crisis.
>
> > Capitalism today pauperises, throws millions into unemployment, and
> > causes great suffering. It does that because it is capitalism, not
> > because it is in crisis. It is not in crisis right now. It is
> > expanding.
>
> > And "rising course of class struggles"? I wish it were true. But not
> > yet.
>
> > The OKDE comrades explained that they did indeed classify capitalism
> > since 1973 as in "constant crisis", manifested in such indices as high
> > unemployment and debt burdens.
>
> > The do***ent charges that the Mandelite FI has "abandoned the Marxist
> > revolutionary position of critical sup****t to the movements and
> > backward countries against imperialism".
>
> > I said that the revolutionary Marxist principle which we recognise is
> > that of solidarity with movements of national liberation against the
> > imposed rule or overlord****p of big powers. We give no sup****t to the
> > paleo-imperialist essays of such powers as Serbia in its long-time
> > colony Kosova, not even against the big powers.
>
> > Here we differed sharply. The OKDE comrades said that they had visited
> > Kosova, and in their view the Serbs had "never harmed" the Kosovars.
> > The crisis in 1999 had been whipped up by the machinations of "rich
> > Albanians" abroad.
>
> > They said that they did not sup****t the Iraqi "resistance", but
> > thought it im****tant to acknowledge that the blows struck by the
> > "resistance" against the USA gave "hope to workers". I replied that
> > where workers see cause for hope in the advance of sectarian Islamist
> > militias, our job is to puncture such illusions, not to try to build
> > on them.
>
> > There may have been a difference on Venezuela, though I'm not sure.
> > The OKDE does not sup****t Chavez, but likewise sees his actions as
> > im****tant "cause for hope", and seemed to say they saw some "anti-
> > capitalist characteristics" in those action. I replied that we see the
> > chief cause for hope in Venezuela as residing in the still-autonomous
> > workers' movement which has grown up in the ferment around Chavez's
> > reforms.
>
> > The OKDE say they have about 80 members. They are active among
> > teachers, in hospitals, shops, telecom, and fast-food, and among
> > students. They are discussing a common electoral front with other left
> > groups outside the orbit of Synapsismos (a left ex-Eurocommunist
> > party).
>
> > There is an SWP satellite-group in Greece, with, the OKDE comrades
> > said, maybe 200 members, but a very big turnover. They described it as
> > very oriented towards the social-democratic party, PASOK. There are
> > two splinters from the SWP group, one linked to the ISO (USA) and one
> > linked to Synapsismos.
>
> > Then there is a rump Mandelite group; a Morenist group; and a small
> > group linked to PO in Argentina and the McPCL in Italy
>
> >http://www.workersliberty.org/node/8566
It is as big as the OKDE grouping and bigger than them in Athens
anyway.
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=F1=F9=F3=E7=F2
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5)=CF=CA=C4=C5 (=D3=F0=DC=F1=F4=E1=EA=EF=F2)
6)=D0=EF=EB=E9=F4=E9=EA=DE =CF=F1=E3=DC=ED=F9=F3=E7 =CA=CF=CA=CA=C9=CD=CF
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9 of the above groupings on
http://apergospastis.pblogs.gr/2008/06/o-ios-ths-elefth*****ypias-dra-enanti=
on-ths-elladas.html
have joined Sinaspismos in the last few months (Eurostalinists)
One more a former Morenoite grouping as well which makes 10.
So the interviewee is being liberal with the truth on the issue.
Mind you its taken them 30 years to realise the French Mandelites are
liquidationist when they were openly at the 1979 World Congress when
they got into a bust up with the Morenoites...
I normally say better late than never, but all leftist groups have the
same politics, gays, Macedonia, immigrants, climate change not
necessarily in that order...
vngelis
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