Re: Socialism and Capitalism

On Jul 18, 3:33 am, Michael Price <nini_...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Jul 17, 6:24 pm, jetgraphics <jetgraph...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > Addendum: Capitalism and Capital
>
> > Since the 17th century, it has been assumed that investment at usury
> > was part of capitalism. In fact, it is not.
>
> > Usury is mathematically impossible to pay in a finite money token
> > system.
>
>   Which of course nobody sane would assume is what we've got, or
> indeed
> ever had.

JG: Therefore, you are saying that the money token system is infinite,
and you can create all the money you need to pay usurers.

> > Aggregate usury creates an obligation that is larger than the
> > whole sum of money tokens. Thus a pro****tion of debtors must default,
> > and lose their pledged collateral, because the money does not exist.
>
>   ONLY IF THE USURERS NEVER SPEND MONEY!

JG: Untrue. An individual contract may appear benign, but when you
total all contracts for usury, the sum owed exceeds the sum total of
money tokens. Ergo, a pro****tion of debtors must fail, blaming
themselves, not knowing that the game is rigged.

Remember, a loan at usury requires repayment of principle plus
interest. How does the interest get created?

> > Usury is a scheme and a scam to rob people and has been condemned by
> > all religions and philosophers, throughout history. Unfortunately,
> > usurers bribed enough academics and leaders, to rewrite the rules in
> > their favor.
>
>   No, people realised (in spite of not because of leaders and
> academics) that
> lending at interest served the purposes of investers and allowed more
> production
> and im****tantly allowed people to invest who would not otherwise have
> been
> able to.

JG: You confuse a rate of return on investment with usury. A herdsman
who invests in goats, can expect natural increase of new goats. A
farmer who invests seed reaps a harvest. But money is dead, and cannot
reproduce.
One way to avoid usury is for the debtor to only owe the principle,
and pay gain in the form of that which the debtor can do or produce.
Invest in a restaurant, receive return in the form of meals (or
coupons denominated in meals).
Invest in GM, receive a coupon denominated in vehicles (or fraction
thereof).


>
> > If you realize that usurers prey upon property owners, it is clear
> > that usury is evil. But by centuries of disinformation, we have been
> > misled to call it "capital investment".
>
> > Adam Smith, in his book "The Wealth of Nations", was instrumental in
> > reprogramming people to accept the abomination of usury as desirable.
>
> > If one can separate the evil usurer from the individual who absolutely
> > owns himself, his labor and fruits of his labor, it will be clearer.
>
>   What evil?  People voluntarily agree to pay, are they doing evil to
> themselves?

JG: If they were aware that they were involved in a scheme that put
their property at risk, they might not be so ready to contract for
usury.