Re: Socialism and Capitalism

Fred wrote:
> Topaz wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 18:00:05 -0400, Fred <fred@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>        I divide economic systems into three main categories, (there
may
>>>        be more):
>>> Scarce money systems, plentiful money systems, and no money systems. 
Only
>>> the scarce money systems reward misbehaviour, (selfishness, legalised
>>> cheating, etc.).  The other two are neutral to them I believe.
>> No, "no money system" does nothing to stop selfishness. That is the
>> problem. Unless you mean pure Communism, but that is just utter
>> nonsense.
>>
>         Communism is a step up from capitalism, but it's not perfect. 
Not a bad
> first step if it's done properly, however.  It still uses scarce money
and
> is subject to the same "capital" pressure due to the nature of the money
> system, but communists at least recognise the problems with capitalism
and
> are doing something to try to fix it.

And communism uses completely worthless money which isn't much of an 
improvement.

I had a look at the LETsystem, and it looks like a voluntary, 
no-interest charged, credit union. Unless they quickly weed out 
freeloaders I would expect such a system to quickly collapse.

Do you have an example of a "plentiful" money system that doesn't 
involve assuming everyone is a saint or just printing money?

> 
>>>        Capitalism is *all about* taking money away from others. 
That's
>>>        how the
>>> game is played.  The more money you get the more power you have.
>>   Wrong again. Capitalism does create wealth. The problem with it is
>> that it does nothing to stop greed and selfishness.
>>
>         People create wealth.  Capitalists take wealth away from the
people and
> money is their weapon of choice.

And just how do capitalists take wealth away from people? Are you 
referring to rents, and sales?

> 
>>>        It is unknown whether psychopaths are a product of the economic
>>>        system.
>> No, it is known. An economic system that does not permit psycopaths is
>> needed.
>>
>         It's got nothing to do with "permission."  You can't stop mental
illness
> with legislation, but rather by removing the causes.  Excessive stress,
for
> instance, could be a cause.

Most clinical psychopaths are born that way. I think any link to any 
economic system would be tenuous at best.

> 
>>> For instance it could be that under a universal plentiful money
system,
>>> like an expanded LETSystem, that psychopaths don't develop.  The
economy
>>> is stable and it does not create class divisions.
>>  There needs to be the inventer class, the brains class, and the hands
>> class. There is no universal wealth without them. Some people have to
>> do the work and some people have to manage the business. Class hatred
>> is part of the Communist rubbish.
>>
>         "Some people have to do the work and some people have to manage
the
> business."  --That's exactly the problem.  An egalitarian workers
> cooperative would be one solution.  There does not have to be leaders
and
> followers.  Much better is an egalitarian society.

Doesn't have to, but in practice it seems to work best. There are only a 
few small examples of 'communes' working currently in the world.

> 
>>   But something needs to balance out the money better. Capitalism
>> doesn't cut it. And something needs to give the cl***** equal respect
>> and encourage friend****p between them.
>>
>         Respect has to be earned.  You simply cannot have selfish minded
people
> saying, "We have to be in charge so respect us."  They will be resented
and
> hated, and with some justification.  Only when people share equally the
> wealth and the responsibility with mutual sup****t,... then respect flows
> naturally.

The only wealth anyone should have is the wealth they earn. I'm ok with 
gifts of all sorts, charity, but not forced redistribution.

> 
>>> The security that is
>>> inherant in such a system may breed better mental health.  We don't
know.
>>> It's never been tried,
>>  It's never been tried because it is utter nonsense. If everyone owned
>> everything equally, very few would work and wealth would not be
>> produced.
>>
>         People generally like to work and be productive.  It's actually
very hard
> to do nothing.  From the time we're very young we picture ourselves
making
> a contribution.  Little boys want to be firemen to save people and so
on. 
> It's human nature to want to help others.  We have to get back in touch
> with those feelings, because the fast paced, scarce money system has
pushed
> it out of us.  It tries to turn us all into psychopaths, because that's
the
> nature of capitalism.
> 
> 

Were do you get the idea that capitalism is a 'scare money' system? 
Extensive, easy credit has expanded the money supply to such an extent 
that some people feel it is a danger tot he overall economy in some 
countries.

Alex