Re: Socialism and Capitalism

Fred <fred@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

> Michael Price wrote:
> 
> > On Jul 19, 7:00 am, Fred <f...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> 
> >>         Capitalism doesn't demand that people be that way, but it
does
> >>         reward the
> >> practise with wealth and power.
> > 
> >   No more, and indeed considerably less than any other system I know.
> 
>         I divide economic systems into three main categories, (there may
be mo
re): 
> Scarce money systems, plentiful money systems, and no money systems. 
Only
> the scarce money systems reward misbehaviour, (selfishness, legalised
> cheating, etc.).  The other two are neutral to them I believe.

What defines these categories?

> 
> > To the extent that a system is capitalistic it is impossible to use
> > wealth
> > and power to take things away from people poorer and less powerful
> > than
> > you.  The mixed economy seems to specialise in that.
> 
>         Capitalism is *all about* taking money away from others.  That's
how t
he
> game is played.  The more money you get the more power you have.

Religious banter.

> > 
> >>  True, you don't have to take it, but some
> >> of the people out there are psychopaths and they will take it.
> > 
> >   And they won't  be psychopaths under other systems?
> 
>         It is unknown whether psychopaths are a product of the economic
system
.. 
> For instance it could be that under a universal plentiful money system,
> like an expanded LETSystem, that psychopaths don't develop.  The economy
is
> stable and it does not create class divisions. The security that is
> inherant in such a system may breed better mental health.  We don't
know.
> It's never been tried,

Now assumign that such a system woukd create such advantages, isn't it
concieveable that through thousands of years of human cultural
evolution, that a variant of such would have developed?

The same problem is staring all political advocated in the face.

> and it would take at least a generation to find out.
> My point is that there are so many horrors that fall out of scarce money
> systems, (including both capitalism & communism), that it really is
worth a
> try.

I'd be willing to try many things that are different from teh mess of
today.

> 
> > 
> >>  Those who don't take it, loose under capitalism.  It's the system
that
> >> gave rise to the saying, "Nice guys finish last."
> >>
> >   You're simply claiming things without evidence.  In fact "nice guys
> > finish
> > last" suits interventionism far better because under it people have
> > things
> > taken away by the not-nice guys.
> > 
>         There is ample evidence.  Just look around you... Watch the
evening ne
ws.

Non-specific references have no value as evidence Be more specific. What
you have just said is that "everyone knows it".

Try that on an exam, and you usually get graded 'F'.

> 
> >> > Profit is a necessity, not a noble goal. Capitalism often generates
> >> > much more wealth than socialist systems which means there are more
> >> > resources to help the needy.
> >>
> >>         But the needy never get them.
> > 
> >   Right, that's why the US has the greatest amount of money given to
> > charity
> > in the world?  That's why capitalist societies have the least poverty?
> > 
>         Not true.

From a relative point of view, it is actually true.

>  People arestarving in the streets in the U.S.

People are starving on streets all over the world. The question is how
many.

>  Not in Cuba.

Still apologizing for the Communist dictator****p of Cuba? That's a
disappointment.
 
> Factor in what Americans pay for health care, and education, and Cubans
> aren't that poor.

Factor in that Cubans have paid a huge price in the loss of their
freedoms to get this alleged non-poverty, and Americans are much better
off, despite the flaws of the american way of life.

>  Add that Cuba now grows organic food all over the
> country

'organic food' is a huge scam that is founded on religious nonsense.
Hardly a ****ning example for the claimed achievements of Cuba.

> and their diet is much better than that of Americans.

Only in the sense that it is much lower in calories than that of
Americans. In that sense, starving Sahel is better than the US, as well.

>  They have
> less stress and less need to compete.

So... no stress from being watched eternally by their own government,
and sent off to prison for saying the wrong things, having the wrong
***ual orientation, and so on?

>  I don't know if they have fewer
> psychopaths, and that would be a difficult measurement to take.

True, as it depends on defintion of the term.

>  There is
> less poverty in Cuba, and there are no extremely wealthy either.
> 
> >>  There are millions of homeless children
> >> going to bed in the streets every night.   Many of them in the U.S.
> > 
> >   Bull****.  There are not millions of homeless children in the US.
> 
>         Not what I said, is it?!  There may be hundreds of thousands in
the U.
S. 
> Nobody knows, because there are no truthful sources for such information
in
> the U.S.

Or rather, it is a question of definition.

But the entire talk about psychopaths smacks of religious politicizing.

> 
> > If there
> > were it would be the fault of child labor laws not capitalism.
> > 
>         Capitalism breeds class divisions and ignores the poor.

Sorry to rain on your parade pal, but *human life* in the real world
breeds class divisions. You will not have a classless world ever, unless
you define yourself out of the problem.

And yes, capitalism ignores the poor, in the same sense that socialism
does. These two things are concepts, not sentient entities.

HUMAN BEINGS can choose to ignore or be aware and take care of the poor.
(statist) Socialism builds up huge, monolithic states that rob their
subjects of their freedoms aleggedly to combat inequality and
asolidarity, poverty, and whatnot. Problem is only that in doing to the
amplify the problems. Bakunin identified this fact more than a century
ago. You would do well to read what he wrote and said on the subject.

>  This creates
> homeless families  and their children going hungry.  Charity never keeps
up
> because Capitalism punishes every charitable act.

Religious banter.

> 
> >>  Not one,...NOT ONE, of those children lives in Cuba... for instance.
> 
> >   Has anyone ever swum to Cuba to avoid poverty?
> 
>         Not many know about what conditions are like in Cuba, because
the U.S.
> propaganda machine is so huge.

But you, the exalted, have seen through all that and happen to know that
the conditions in CUba are in fact marvellous, better than the US and so
on.

Oh dear, oh dear.

>  They have not been made rich by the
> revolution,

Understatement of the year.

> but they have been empowered by it.

is that why the number of prisons hav tripled since the revolution? Is
taht why homo***uals, rock musicians, alleged capitalists and capitalist
conspirators, foreign agents and anyone who didn't such Fidel's dick
enough were executed or thrown behind bars?

>  This is far more
> meaningful to a healthy life than mad consumerism.

If you like pre-70 cars and no internet, sure.

>  It's still a scarce
> money economy, but they are at least making the effort to correct the
worst
> of the problems.

Quite intertaining, though in a tragic way.

-- 
- Peter *** http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes
you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain