Re: Socialism and Capitalism

Alex Russell wrote:

> Fred wrote:

>>         I think personal property of some sort is im****tant up to a
>>         point.  For
>> instance things that belonged to your family or gifts from loved ones,
>> can be respected for their emotional value, but when a person uses
their
>> wealth to control or force the actions of other people, then the wealth
>> gets to be
>> a problem.  That sort of owner****p should be re-examined, carefully.
>> 
> 
> Can you give examples of what you think is an abuse compared to an
> honest investment - both being large scale?
> 
        The very word "investment" implies that there is a hope for a
profit.  The
speculative nature of the activity makes it a "bad thing" to my way of
thinking.  It is usually entered into in order to maximise profits,
meaning
money.  Since money is plentiful under the new system(s), there is no need
to have more and it doesn't make any sense to "invest."
        Large scale projects, like a car factory or a space program can
and should
be done cooperatively.  The money cannot be used to force people to work,
so people will do what interests them and if enough people want to build a
car, they will get together and do it.  How they do it is up to them, and
that's how it should be.  It might be easier to establish a cor****ate
account on the system and they each contribute to it.  Then it can buy and
sell goods, or they can each pay a small ****tion of every purchase and
establish some cooperative owner****p of whatever the company's assets
are... There may be a best way to do it.  That would have to be
investigated.


>>  
>>> The existence of rich people in the current system does not take
>>> anything from me.
>>>
>>         Over 50% of the entire wealth of the planet is owned and
>>         controlled by
>> fewer than 250 people, according to the U.N.  That is obscenely wrong. 
>> It does take away from you, and all the rest of us.
>>         When one person has the power to shut down a factory and
>>         impoverish
>> thousands of people and their families, that threatens all of us.  When
>> they take over a third world country and run it like a slave camp even
>> controlling the politicians, that is a crime against humanity.
>> 
> 
> I agree that money has too much influence of politics. Unprofitable
> factories should be closed. Frees up capital and resources for things
> that actually are productive.
> 
        Yeah.  Under the existing system they complain about welfare, but
governments throw huge amounts of money at the rich.  Look at the bailouts
recently in the U.S.
        I really the cooperative take-overs in Venezuela and Argentina. 
Egalitarian Worker's Cooperatives are the best thing to fall out of the
scarce money systems.  It's a step in the right direction.

>> 
>>> Speaking of committees, who keeps track of all these balances, does
>>> audits, etc...
>>>
>>         Everyone has to share in those duties.  Under the LETSystem,
they
>>         have a
>> board of directors who have the authority to go in and examine the
books,
>> but as Mr. Linton explained to people, *anybody* can declare themselves
>> to
>> be a director and go in and inspect things until they're satisfied. 
The
>> recording of transactions may be done by computer, but it's also
possible
>> for people to do it if they want.
>> 
> 
> Sounds reasonable. Does everyone kick in to run the computers etc... for
> the system?
> 
        Under the LETSystem,    Michael Linton says it's "anyone who wants
to."  At
least that's what he used to say.  I haven't talked to him in many years. 
It seemed to work for them.
        Under a universal plentiful money system, I think there would have
to be
lots of public meetings -- community meetings to sort things out.  Maybe
people could establish a "system" ahead of time that should work and could
be modified after.  I'll try to be thinking about it in the weeks to come.

I have a workshop in Sept. on alternative economics and it would be good
to
present something like that.

> 
> Thanks for the civil discourse Fred.
> 

        You're entirely welcome.  The answers to some of your questions
will be
going into my presentation at the workshop.  So thank-you too.

-- 
Peace,
Fred
(Remove FFFf from my email address to reply by email).