Fred <fred@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> PeterBP wrote: > > > Fred <fred@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote: > > >> For
instance it could be that under a universal plentiful money system, > >>
like an expanded LETSystem, that psychopaths don't develop. The economy
> >> is stable and it does not create class divisions. The security that
is
> >> inherant in such a system may breed better mental health. We don't
know. > >> It's never been tried, > > > > Now assumign that such a
system woukd create such advantages, isn't it > > concieveable that
through thousands of years of human cultural > > evolution, that a
variant of such would have developed? > > > It is difficult to
think of a different monetary system. No doubt the re > are many that
I've missed myself. Lately politics is such that most people > think
there are only two; capitalism & communism. During the cold war it >
suited both sides to limit the options for their people, saying, "You're
> either with us or against us." Many people bought into that philosophy.
You are not explaining, but bantering.
> It's hard to think about different economies just as it's hard
to
thin k > about a 4th spatial dimension. People have no experience of it
and so tend > not to think of it. But if we stretch our imaginations
and try to grasp > what it means and how it could affect us, we might
find a way to get a lot > more freedom,...economically.
You've offered no explanations.
Would a variable of whatever system it is you are suggesting, have
developed and grown in some time in the past, yes or no? Answer the
qustion please.
> > >> and it would take at least a generation to find out. > >> My point
is
that there are so many horrors that fall out of scarce money > >>
systems, (including both capitalism & communism), that it really is
worth > >> a try. > > > > I'd be willing to try many things that are
different from teh mess of > > today. > > > My feelings exactly.
I believe these changes would mean that the econ omy > would serve
people, instead of the other way around. We're working with a >
backward system right now.
For the failing sof the system, I will not engange in alternatives which
are so conceptually flawed they are likely to turn into dictator****ps,
if they weren't at the outset.
> > >> > >> > > >> >> Those who don't take it, loose under capitalism.
It's the system > >> >> that > >> >> gave rise to the saying, "Nice
guys finish last." > >> >> > >> > You're simply claiming things
without evidence. In fact "nice guys > >> > finish > >> > last" suits
interventionism far better because under it people have > >> > things >
>> > taken away by the not-nice guys. > >> > > >> There is ample
evidence. Just look around you... Watch the > >> evening ne > >
ws. > > > > Non-specific references have no value as evidence Be more
specific. What > > you have just said is that "everyone knows it". > > >
> Try that on an exam, and you usually get graded 'F'. > > >
Unfortunately the only way we have of confirming that "nice guys finis
h > last" is by looking at the people living under the system. The
Mafia is > really running our society, although there is the illusion
that we have a > democracy. It's a very competitive system and it's
quite true that no one > competes like the Mob. We're getting back to
that psychopathic mentality > again. They care about nothing but power.
They don't form friendly > relation****ps. They lie without caring.
And this is much different from your sup****t for Cuban dictator****p,
which you continue to raise in fact of all criticism and facts to teh
contrary?
If you want to take the moral high ground, you really should check taht
you are standing on rock and not quicksand.
> That part of their brains is shut off and unused. That's a psychopath.
> It's not their fault and we don't know for certain what causes it, but
if
> you're going to have a competitive economy, you have to get used to the
> idea that the psychopaths will eventually be in charge.
A lot of banter that has a grain of truth, but doesnt actually provide
any verifiable claims of your original statement.
The grade F remains until you back your claims with outher than
rhetoric. You are making no converts.
>
>
> >> Factor in what Americans pay for health care, and education, and
Cubans
> >> aren't that poor. > > Factor in that Cubans have paid a huge price in
> the loss of their > freedoms to get this alleged non-poverty, and
> Americans are much better > off, despite the flaws of the american way
of
> life. > This "loss of freedoms" is just American Propaganda.
If that is your sincere believ, then you are truly ignorant.
Are the boat refugiees that ocasionalyl was up in Florida "American
Propaganda", too? Is th consistent international human rights community
criticism of Cuba also "American Propaganda"?
Think for a change.
> Cuba is not a dictator****p and Cubans have "mass organisations" at the
> grass roots level that control the political decisions.
This has ben discussed before. What you forget to mention in your
defense of this "grass roots democracy" is that any eligible candiate
MUST BE SCREENED AND OK'D BY THE CENTRAL AUSTORITIES IN HAVANA.
> The people elect their representatives democratically because these
> organisations which are open to everybody actually nominate who runs and
> candidates are never dropped into a "riding" by a political party.
See above.
> Most Americans think the communist party runs Cuba, but the
> reality is that no party, including the communist party, may field a
> candidate in the elections.
Then why does the Communist Party exist at all?
Clue time.
> It may in fact be the most democratic government in the world.
The same delusion as before, and you should really consider - if you are
a legitimately offering your opinion, and not just trolling - that you
are utterly destroying whatever credibility you may have in terms of the
few other smart things you say when you voice sup****t for a
dictator****p.
> >> Add that Cuba now grows organic food all over the >> country > >
> 'organic food' is a huge scam that is founded on religious nonsense. >
> Hardly a ****ning example for the claimed achievements of Cuba. > The
> reduction of toxins in our diet has tremendous health benefits.
The mount of toxins in traditional farm food on the shelves of stores
has been insignificant, even before 'organic farming' became the fad it
is today.
Furthermore, IFM - Integrated Farm Management - which is slowly
becoming the dominant way of doing things in non-organic farms (at least
in the UK, may exist under other names around the world), does most of
the things 'organic' farming prides itself for (fx. reduced use of
pesticides, alternatives to tilling soil, large buffers between crops
and sourrounding nature etc), but without the religious mumbo-jumbo.
Dick Taverne has written a bit about this in his book "The March of
Unreason".
Read more.
http://www.ukagriculture.com/farming_today/integrated_farm_management.cf
m
> I have experienced this personally and I still have trouble finding
> wholesome foods to complete the process.
Singular testominoals cannot be used to make general conclusions. it
does for anything from organic food to alternative medicine.
> They are not always pevelent in our society.
>
> >> and their diet is much better than that of Americans. > > Only in the
> sense that it is much lower in calories than that of > Americans. In
that
> sense, starving Sahel is better than the US, as well. > No,
nutritionally.
> Cubans are healthier.
You do not actually confront my point. Is this undefined "health"
factoring in obesity, yes or no?
ALso, please submit data to back up your argument.
>
> >> They have >> less stress and less need to compete. > > So... no
stress
> from being watched eternally by their own government, > and sent off to
> prison for saying the wrong things, having the wrong > ***ual
orientation,
> and so on? > The U.S. is constantly trying to infiltrate and has
conducted
> virtual warfare against Cuba.
That does not confront my argument.
> They've blown up a passenger jet killing everyone aboard. They've
> planted bombs in hotels. They've hired journalists to spread lies in
> their writings and they've conducted germ warfare with swine flu, and
crop
> infestations as well as directly against the people with Dengue Fever.
Of
> course their security is high. It has to be.
So opression is now excused by a need for security?
Somehow, I have a feeling that if a neocon esposed the same excuse to
you, when they are increasingly surveilling and detainign american on US
soil (or anywhere for that matter), you'd be screaming with indignation.
Fred, do try to get a consistent grasp of these things. YOUR kind of
opression is not better than "MY" kind of opression.
>
>
> >> They have not been made rich by the >> revolution, > >
Understatement
> of the year. > >> but they have been empowered by it. > > is that why
the
> number of prisons hav tripled since the revolution? Is > taht why
> homo***uals, rock musicians, alleged capitalists and capitalist >
> conspirators, foreign agents and anyone who didn't such Fidel's dick >
> enough were executed or thrown behind bars? > Untrue.
You are welcome to disprove my claim.
Until then, here is an interesting page:
http://www.cuba-junky.com/cuba/prisons.htm
Isn't it interesting that a socialist paradise would need so many
prisons, if the aim of socialism is to make human harmony and
cooperation?
Ponder that for a bit.
> By the way, almost a quarter of the people in prison around the
> world are in U.S. prisons.
True, but that does not excuse the opression of the Cubans by their
government by one iota.
> It's virtually 1 in a hundred in the States. Nothing like that in
Cuba.
Strawman, misses the point. That's kinda like saying that you are
justified in kicking a starving beggar off the steps to your home
because he is only one in 10 million around the world, so he is
insignificant in the large scheme of things.
>
> >> This is far more >> meaningful to a healthy life than mad
consumerism.
> > > If you like pre-70 cars and no internet, sure. > This is a product
of
> the embargo, not Cuba's doing.
No, Fred, it is NOT a product of the embargo. Cuba is free to trade with
all nations on the Earth, the US and Israel being the only exceptions
(the US bans US-Cuba Trade, Cuba bans Israel_Cuba trade).
For years, cubans have by LAW been barred from owning cars newer than
what was manufactured in 1970 or thereabouts. Internet access has been
largely unavailable. And so on.
Before the embargo, between 5 and 10% of the Cuban cross border trade
was with the US. The poverty of Cuba is NOT explained by the US embargo,
which I for the record would like to see abolished, in part because it
would increase western cultural infuelce on CUba, in part because it
would expose the statist-socialist sham for what it is, and annihalate
exactly your above argument, which many others also rely on to explain
away the problems central planning and control does to a society.
-- - Peter *** http://titancity.com/blog/
"Don't go around saying the
world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first."
- Mark Twain
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