benlizro@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> On Apr 3, 1:09 pm, pearl <lilw...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
<..>
> > > > The author of the piece at the link you posted.
> >
> > > Are you referring to James Patrick Holding, the first writer on that
> > > page, or Samuel Hopgood Hart, whose name appears at the end of the
> > > lengthy quote which follows?
> >
> > Whoever attributed that "received translation" to Ouseley.
>
> But you say (below) that he "received a transcription...".
As opposed to an entire Gospel received in dreams...
> Clearly he
> had something to do with it. Maybe what you're objecting to is saying
> that he was the _author_ of it, i.e. wrote it himself. I'm not sure
> either of the above people actually says so in so many words, though
> Holding is probably thinking as much.
You apparently do.
> Interestingly, though, I came
> across a web site (which I can't seem to find again) that had actual
> photos of the covers/title pages of three editions, and one of them
> had "_by_ Rev GJR Owseley" on the cover, as if he was the author.
There are indeed various editions.
'THE GOSPEL OF THE HOLY TWELVE Rev G J Ouseley
'The Gospel of the Holy Twelve is one of the most ancient and
complete of early Christian fragments, preserved in one of the
Monasteries of the Buddhist monks in Tibet, where it was hidden
by some of the Essene community for safety from the hands of
corrupters and now for the first time translated from the Aramaic.'
wrote Rev G J Ouseley in the original preface to his work. It is
believed that it is from this 'Original Gospel' that the present
Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were derived.
...
http://www.cygnus-books.co.uk/the-gospel-of-the-holy-twelve-rev-g-j-ouseley-p14089.html
> I think it may have been the 1952 edition, the one that Hart wrote the
> introduction to. So maybe Hart is the big liar? But why would somebody
> go to the trouble of re-publi****ng something and writing an
> introduction if they thought it was just a fraud?
Besides the obvious? But I retract those speculations.
A search for Samuel Hopgood Hart reveals only a very
close association with Maitland and Kingsford. At the
Anna Kingsford site, there's a description of that article:
'This is a biographical essay about the Rev. Gideon Jasper
Richard Ouseley, who was a great admirer of the work
and the message of Anna Kingsford and Edward Maitland.
We found this essay in the site created by Jim Brooks,
where we also can read the Gospel of the Holy Twelve,
which was presented to the world by the Rev. Ouseley,
who affirms that he was helped (in dreams and visions)
by Anna Kingsford and others (see the entry about the
Gospel of the Holy Twelve).
...'
http://www.anna-kingsford.com/english/Other_Related_Works/Texts/OOR-I-HartMemoOu.htm
Help, as in perceived guidance or inspiration during a
translation, is different to dreaming this entire Gospel.
<..>
> > Perilously close -http://www.ejpress.org/article/15698.
Comment?
...
> > > Maybe it would be less confusing if you could state briefly what you
> > > regard as the true facts about Ousley and this gospel.
> >
> > Sure, all you need to do is ask. From what I've gathered,
> > Rev. Ouseley received a transcription of this do***ent
> > via some underground spiritual brotherhood. As it went.
>
> ? this seems incomplete. What does "As it went." mean?
Taken away for safekeeping.
> Do you mean "received" in some material sense?
Yes.
> Does your view of the true facts include Swedenborg, Placidus
Does a perceived inspiration qualify as a "true fact"?
> and the Tibetan monastery?
Yes.
> And what would convince us that your account is more true than the
> others we've seen?
You, the historical and theological context plus rational
thought; a relevant quote from another gospel recorded
by an early Christian scholar, which I've already posted;
'In Lection 46 Verse 17, of the Gospel Of The Holy
Twelve, that was translated in 1892, the term "Teachers
Of Righteousness" is used, a term that was not known
until the Discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls 1n 1947.
17. Ye shall revere your fathers and your mothers on
earth, whose care is for you, and all the Teachers of
Righteousness.
...'
http://www.mcleanministries.com/NTA/gospel_of_the_holy_twelve.txt
Also,
'Far more than the Biblical Gospels, this work has the feel
of having been written by actual witnesses to the events it
describes. The detail is often both more natural and more
explicit, and a great many theological, social, and political
issues come out making a great deal more sense.
Often during the reading of this work, one feels that one is
simply reading the Bible, for many passages are, indeed,
virtually identical to that found in the canon. The familiar old
stories are told again, and either the working is identical,
or, when expanded upon or alternate wording is used, the
stories come out making rather more sense than before,
clearing up many questions left hanging in the authorized
version. Never does it seem that the unfamiliar material is
actually out-of-place, as if it had been pasted-in by editors
after the fact. Rather, in virtually every instance the fresh
material seems an integral component of the narrative, and,
as one reflects anew upon the more familiar wording of the
authorized Bible, the absence of this unfamiliar material
seems now to stand out as a lacking:
"And Herod with his men of war set him at naught, and
mocked him, and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe and sent
him again to Pilate. And the same day Pilate and Herod
were made friends, for before they were at enmity between
themselves." - Nazirenes 81:17
Nice detail. Its inclusion in the narrative doesn't seem
necessary for any theological content or other long-term
significance, but it is nonetheless precisely the sort of detail
a group of 12 friends might see fit to include in their narrative.
Similar details occur throughout the text. In the authorized
Bible, for example, at Jesus' death it merely re****ts that the
"veil of the Temple was ripped" by a powerful earthquake.
But in what is seemingly the more original, and detail-rich
work, "Nazirenes" elaborates convincingly:
"And behold there was great thunder and lightning, and
the partition wall of the Holy place, from which hung the
veil, fell down, and was rent in two, and the Earth did
quake, and the rocks also were rent." - Nazirenes 82:26
Seemingly minor yet colorful and narratively enriching
details like this run throughout this text, giving the
compelling impression that this is indeed an original
eyewitness narrative, not a bland, confused, or glossed-
over retelling of a dusty tradition repeatedly handed down
orally for 30 years of more before finally being committed
to writing. Traditional scriptural teachings maintain that
the mighty works recorded in the New Testament went
unwritten for some 30 years or more before being put
down in writing, but this seems to make no sense. At
least some of the apostles were, re****tedly, quite literate
and learned men, and it seems likely, even prior to
encountering a text such as this, that an already close-
knit group of 12 learned friends would have quickly pooled
and compared their memories in an effort to compose a
definitive version of their recollections of the man,
teachings, and works of Jesus, before anything of im****t
could be forgotten.
And this text, now available for all to read, constitutes
evidence that such a collective testimony not only WAS
composed (just as reason suggests it would have been),
but successfully survived the centuries after all, even in
spite of whatever political forces that might at one time
have been aligned against it.
It seems very much as if the authorized Gospels in the
present-day Bible were all various edited versions of
this "Gospel of the Nazirenes". Some material originating
in "Nazirenes", it seems, even found its way into the
Biblical books of Acts and Revelations.
...'
http://www.freeread.com/archives/81.php
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