Re: => Gray Ghost (Frank) truly an amoral repugnant piece of ****

Free Lunch wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Aug 2008 08:37:34 -0500, grey_ghost471-newsgroups@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (Gray Ghost) wrote in alt.atheism:
> 
>> "Reality_Check©" <Reality@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in news:6ffgrvFb3rt2U1
>> @[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>> "Gray Ghost" <grey_ghost471-newsgroups@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>> "_ Prof. Jonez _" <theprof@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>>>>> Gray Ghost wrote:
>>>>>> "_ Prof. Jonez _" <theprof@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
>>>>>>> Harry Callahan wrote:
>>>>>>>> "_ Prof. Jonez _" <theprof@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
>>>>>>>>> Chris Morton wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> _ Prof. Jonez _ says...
>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Morton wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> _ Prof. Jonez _ says...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pathetic attempt to justify dropping NUCLEAR BOMBS on
CIVILIAN
>>>>>>>>>>>>> POPULATION CENTERS -- TWICE!
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, what you're saying is that whole Rape of Nanking, Pearl
>>>>>>>>>>>> Harbor, Bataan Death March, Unit 731, Rape of Manila thing
didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> ... 
>>>>>>>>>>> have ****-all to do with the amorality of the U$ deliberately
>>>>>>>>>>> dropping NUCLEAR WEAPONS of Mass Destruction upon CIVILIAN
>>>>>>>>>>> population centers, killing 100,000+ innocent men, women and
>>>>>>>>>>> children in the process. 
>>>>>>>>>> It has EVERYTHING to do with it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Japan engaged in a brutal and ultimately foolish war of
genocide
>>>>>>>>>> and aggression against its neighbors, during which it didn't
show
>>>>>>>>>> one iota of mercy to ANYONE, not even its own troops and
civilians.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nobody was going to sacrifice the lives of the victims to
protect
>>>>>>>>>> the victimizers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Japan made a series of choices.  At the least they should man
up
>>>>>>>>>> and own the consequences of those choices.
>>>>>>>>> So it's OK in your rabid Repugnikkkan opinion to commit War
Crimes
>>>>>>>>> and Crimes Against Humanity against CIVILIANS, as long as they
>>>>>>>>> deserved it in your infinite wisdom, eh s***bag?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What did the men, women and children of Hanking do to deserve
what
>>>>>>>> they got? 
>>>>>>> How does that justify dropping NUCLEAR WEAPONS of Mass Destruction
>>>>>>> upon 100,000+ CIVILIANS. women and children,  in Hiro****ma and
>>>>>>> Nagasaki ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Assuming Hiro****ma was wrong,
>>>>> And the thousands of innocent civilians, women and children in
Nagasaki?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why does a depraved amoral sack of **** like you attempt to justify
>>>>> dropping NUCLEAR WEAPONS of MASS DESTRUCTION upon a CIVILIAN
population
>>>>> centers, killing 100,000+ innocent men, women and children in the
>>>>> process? 
>>>>>
>>>> Alright then, let's leave Hiro****ma and Nagasaki out of it
altogether.
>>> How can one leave Hiro****ma and Nagasaki out of the discussion
>>> about the immorality of dropping NUCLEAR WEAPONS of Mass
>>> Destruction upon CIVILIAN population centers, slaughtering 100,000+
>>> innocent men, women and children in the process ?
>>>
>>> Are you that daft?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> So there were no other "immoral" acts committed during WWII by anyone
exceot 
>> the US?
>>
>> The question remains, do you have an opinion on:
>> The Rape of Nanking?
>> The Bataan Death March?
>> The Korean Comfort Women?
>> Unit 731?
>> The Rape of Manila?
>>
>> Surely you can answer this question.
> 
> I certainly can. Each is profoundly wrong. The perpetrators all deserved
> to be tried and punished for them. None of those actions, however,
> justify equivalent responses. 

So Japan's sneak attack on Pearl Harbor may have been wrong, but it did 
not justify the US waging war on Japan?

This wasn't a time of peace - it was a time of declared war that Japan 
started with various attacks throughout the Pacific.

How would you have brought the evil-doers to trial, had they won the war?

Offensive materials were developed to become more effective.  Airplanes 
got faster; they could carry more and bigger bombs.  Bombs got bigger 
and more destructive.  Bombsights were developed for more accurate 
delivery of bombs.  And then the A-bomb was developed.

The US ALREADY had 300,000 GI's dead or missing - and 300,000 wounded. 
Truman was NOT going to allow the Japanese to have their personal war on 
the army of invasion because the estimates of American deaths and 
casualties there would have exceeded the numbers to that date.

Here's what the army thought, as of 1998:
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/giangrec.htm

Truman was told prior to dropping the bombs that should the US invade 
Japan in Operation Downfall, beginning with Operation Olympic on Kyushu 
that Operation Olympic could result in up to 450,000 American 
casualties, with up to 100,000 American dead

And this does not count the estimated casualties of Operation Coronet to 
invade the main island of Honshu, which may have gone as high as 600,000 
additional American casualties with an additional 150,000 American dead.

So the total of American casualties in Operation Downfall could be as 
high as a million men, with 250,000 dead.  Certainly there would be no 
less than tens of thousands of new casualties and tens of thousands of 
new dead.

And we are not counting the Japanese casualties and dead.  Toward the 
war's end, the US Army kill ratio was five Japanese to one American.

AFAICT, dropping the A-bomb was the best way to end the war.  IMNSHO 
Truman would have been universally reviled afterwards as an American 
traitor had he gone ahead with Operation Downfall.

Here are estimates of the casualties of the war at its end:

Axis Forces

Country		Pop. 	Killed 	Wound   Total	Civ.
                         Missing         Milit	deaths
Germany  	78m 	3.5m  	4.6m 	8.1m 	2m
Italy  		44m 	330k  	? 	?  	70k
Japan  		72m 	1.75m 	? 	?  	350k
Rumania  	20m 	500k 	300k 	800k 	400k
Bulgaria  	6m 	10k 	? 	?  	50k
Hungary  	10m 	120k 	250k 	370k 	200k
Finland  	4m 	100k 	45k 	145k 	4k


Allied Forces

Country		Pop. 	Killed 	Wound   Total	Civ.
                         Missing         Milit	deaths

China  		450m  	1.3m  	1.8m 	3.1m  	9m
Poland          35m 	130k 	200k 	330k 	2.5m
U.K.  		48m 	400k 	300k  	700k  	60k
France  	42m 	250k 	350k 	600k 	270k
Australia  	7m 	30k 	40k 	70k 	--
India  		360m 	36k 	64k 	100k 	--
New Zealand 	2m  	10k 	20k 	30k 	--
So. Africa  	10m 	9k 	14k 	23k 	--
Canada  	11m 	42k 	50k 	92k 	--
Denmark 	4m 	2k 	? 	? 	1k
Norway 	3m 	10k 	? 	? 	6k	?
Belgium  	8m  	12k 	16k 	28k 	100k
Holland  	9m 	14k 	7k 	21k 	250k
Greece  	7m 	90k 	? 	? 	400k
Yugoslavia  	15m 	320k 	? 	? 	1.3m
U.S.S.R.  	194m 	9m 	18m  	27m 	19m
U.S.A. 		129m 	300k 	300k 	600k 	--

-- 
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952

Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian