Re: "Liberal Fascism" -- Jonah Goldberg, Doubleday 2007

On Sun, 18 May 2008 17:27:00 -0400  'Jeffrey Turner'
wrote this on uk.politics.misc:

>aracari wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 May 2008 15:10:47 -0400  'Jeffrey Turner'
>> wrote this on uk.politics.misc:
>>>aracari wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I refer you to my previous post:
>>>>"Yeah sure... Mussolini and Hitler were right wing."
>>>>
>>>>That appears to debunk you pretty well.
>>>>
>>>>I didn't mention Stalin, Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot etc.
>>>>All socialists who quickly became fascists when they gained power.
>>>
>>>So you've got a bizarre definition of "fascist," who knew?
>> 
>> lol. Too bad for you that many people share the same definition.
>
>Ignorance is curable, you know?

You'll be alright after some treatment then.


>>>>   <quote>
>>>>http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/11/the_nazis_were_maxists.html
>>>>"The Nazis were Marxists, no matter what our tainted academia 
>>>>and corrupt media wishes us to believe. Nazis, Bolsheviks, the 
>>>>Ku Klux Klan, Maoists, radical Islam and Facists -- all are on the
>>>>Left, something that should be increasingly apparent to decent,
>>>>honorable people in our times."
>>>>   </quote>
>>> 
>>>Just because you quote nonsense doesn't make it so.  Not knowing the
>>>politics and history of 1920s Europe is one thing, but how can any
>>>American claim that the Klan was left-wing?
>> 
>> I'm not American, but the KKK would be defined as fascist simply
>> because of their desire to impose their will onto others by force.
>> IE anti-freedom and liberty, which is at the heart of fascism.
>
>And fascism is left-wing by definition, as you know.  Meaning, that
>it's something you don't like.

Are we debating at cross-purposes? I have already said that
fascism is mainly coming from the Left. You agree with me now?

fwiw I describe myself as moderate libertarian, so yes, I despise
fascism and everything it stands for.

The very idea that my govt (UK) could pass a law tomorrow banning
me from eating sausages for breakfast is totally unacceptable -
but there are enough k00ks there to consider it. All they need to
do it is get a simple majority in Parliament.


>> The state must rule and control everything and everybody.
>
>I guess that makes Louis XIV a socialist, or at least a fascist, who
>knew?

Probably. I consider anybody who exercises authoritarian control
as fascist, but of course there are  *degrees* and *flavours* of
it.  Hitler's fascism was different to Mussolini's. 
It isn't a black/white label.


>> People become dispensable for the greater good of the state
>> which usually means the rulers and despots. Violence is a means
>> to an end, as we see in every one of those groups listed above.
>
>So if you sup****t the use of force as a means to an end, you're a
>fascist?

You're being too simplistic. I was generally referring to domestic
policies towards the citizenry. There are good and bad external
wars. WW2 was just, Vietnam? Iraq? take your pick.


>>>What radical Islam has to
>>>do with Bolshevism, except that Americans don't like either of them, is
>>>beyond me.
>> 
>> Simple. The Bolsheviks wanted to impose their model of society
>> onto others and slaughtered ~40 million trying.
>> 
>> Radical Islam wants to do the same thing, but hasn't topped 
>> 40 million yet.
>
>So if I want to hit .400 I'm Ted Williams?

You can be anybody you like afaiac.


>>>The Klan?  Really?
>> 
>> see above.
>
>I saw it.  You haven't even defined "right wing."

Nobody asked me to.
This debate was about defining fascism, which I see as the
greatest risk to our free societies over the next ~25 years.

The political cl***** have failed with policies, now they are
planning to keep themselves in power by endless new laws and
ultimately by force if necessary.

We already have democratic fascism. All it needs is for govts to
diminish the im****tance of elections (as we see in the EU) and you
have the start of a new era of fascism.

The new President of The EU will be *appointed* by other EU
leaders, with not a single vote ever being cast by the hundreds 
of millions of EU citizens. 

Of course, they will claim he is legitimate using doubleplusungood
newspeak.


>>>>>>But it does not exclude some
>>>>>>people on the Right becoming fascists, eg cor****ate fascism, which
>>>>>>you have a few of in America.
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't live in the USA.   However, many lug-nuts in the USA who are
self-
>>>>>proclaimed "capitalists" believe that having a single payer health
care 
>>>>>program deems my country as "socialist".
>>>>>
>>>>>They don't even know the meaning of the term "socialist", yet they
bellow 
>>>>>endlessly about it!
>>>>
>>>>Many Americans also don't like to see the parallels between
>>>>Democrats and socialism.
>>>
>>>Or the parallels between anchovies and avocados.
>> 
>> A senior American political grandee said recently of Hillary
>> Clinton  "if she wins the WH, she will use the full power of 
>> the state to impose her will".
>> 
>> That is socialism.
>
>So you believe whatever some anonymous person alleges?  OK.

Not at all. I'm a UK observer. What I know of her tells me that
she leans towards what we call socialism in Europe, but I realise
that many Americans often don't see socialism as we do.


-- 
socialism is like chronic heart disease ...
you may not know you suffer from it, but it'll kill you in the end.